Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 10th Apr 2009 15:43 UTC, submitted by Alexander Yerenkow
PC-BSD PC-BSD, the desktop-oriented FreeBSD variant, has released version 7.1, dubbed Galileo. In case you don't know, PC-BSD is a FreeBSD distribution with lots of customisations focussed on the desktop user. Its most defining features is the Push Button Installer, a self-contained package format with handy installers/uninstallers. PC-BSD 7.1 comes loaded with changes and updates.
Thread beginning with comment 358051
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[2]: Comment by Stephen!
by righard on Fri 10th Apr 2009 18:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Stephen!"
righard
Member since:
2007-12-26

What is so great about PBI's?
In Arch Linux, for example, if I want something I just type:
pacman -S something
What is so difficult about that, except that it's less similar to the way Windows and MacOS do it?

(I'm not trying to bash here, I really don't understand it, please explain...)

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!
by poundsmack on Fri 10th Apr 2009 18:34 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Stephen!"
poundsmack Member since:
2005-07-13

typing anything (or deveation from something as simple as double clicking something) is a problem with gaining wide spread addoption. I am not saying its the best aproach (though i like it the best) but its the reality of teh situation.

The good news is, when you control the market or you do have a good chunk in it, you can change things at will and your customers will follow you blindly. Some out of not knowing any better (windows users) others (Apple users) because their god told them too and Jobs, errr I mean god is apparently infallible in their eyes.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by Stephen!
by kryogenix on Sat 11th Apr 2009 07:02 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!"
kryogenix Member since:
2008-01-06

Not having a green start menu hinders wide-spread adoption. I couldn't care less. Their computer probably came with Windows and I make plenty of money solving their issues.

Wahhhhh.... you use a new product you might actually have to "learn something" and have a basic understanding of computers. Trying to mimic learned tasks on Windows does no good with other OS's and I take offense to taking UNIX and making it more Windows-like.

The fact that UNIX isn't Windows-like or DOS-like is one of the reasons I've stuck with it since WinNT 3.51 was still in beta.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by Stephen!
by kryogenix on Sat 11th Apr 2009 07:12 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!"
kryogenix Member since:
2008-01-06

(Apple users) because their god told them too and Jobs, errr I mean god is apparently infallible in their eyes.


Hmmm.... a decent UNIX with a BSD userland and easy access to a good CLI shell of your choice.... check

a GUI environment that is far more efficient and performs better than X11 especially with modern games..... check

X11 environment for network-transparent or legacy apps..... check

The same GCC toolchain everyone uses..... check

A desktop environment that is well-integrated, friendly, powerful and doesn't feel like it's in perpetual beta..... check

Vendor-supported apps and games from major brands like Adobe, Strata, etc..... check

A price more reasonable than ANY commercial UNIX vendor regardless of intended usage?..... check

Gee, what's not to like? The fact they won't give you Aqua source code you most likely wouldn't be able to interpret or ever really utilize anyway?

Just because it's closed, commercial and won't install without heavy patching on a piece of shit bottom-of-the-barrel Dell celeron-based POS doesn't mean it sucks, grow up.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!
by DrillSgt on Fri 10th Apr 2009 18:43 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Stephen!"
DrillSgt Member since:
2005-12-02

What is so great about PBI's?
In Arch Linux, for example, if I want something I just type:
pacman -S something
What is so difficult about that, except that it's less similar to the way Windows and MacOS do it?

(I'm not trying to bash here, I really don't understand it, please explain...)


Not taken as bashing. I know you can type those commands, and installing the software is easy. The difference in using a PBI is there are no dependencies to worry about, everything is in the package. You also don't have to install as root, as everything can be installed in the home directory. Yes, that can be done on Linux if comiling from source, but when using the repos you need to hope that all the repos are up and running. With a PBI, once you get it, you can install it while disconnected from the net, as there is nothing else to get and no dependencies to download.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[4]: Comment by Stephen!
by righard on Fri 10th Apr 2009 18:47 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!"
righard Member since:
2007-12-26

Well okay, it does sound like a rather good system. Though I still prefer good old pacman.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[4]: Comment by Stephen!
by WereCatf on Fri 10th Apr 2009 21:44 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Not taken as bashing. I know you can type those commands, and installing the software is easy. The difference in using a PBI is there are no dependencies to worry about, everything is in the package. You also don't have to install as root, as everything can be installed in the home directory. Yes, that can be done on Linux if comiling from source, but when using the repos you need to hope that all the repos are up and running. With a PBI, once you get it, you can install it while disconnected from the net, as there is nothing else to get and no dependencies to download.

As said, the downside to PBI is that the dependencies are taking extra space. But I didn't notice any mention of another, bigger, issue; the dependencies included could be out-of-date and as such may contain security holes. I personally don't like either of those things.

It'd be wonderful if you could combine those things: the application would be downloadable with all of its dependencies included, but those would only be installed and used if those weren't already provided by the system. That'd remove the duplicate dependencies AND allow the system to manage security fixes and updates to libraries while still allowing you to install the app even without internet connection.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!
by shadoweva09 on Fri 10th Apr 2009 19:25 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Stephen!"
shadoweva09 Member since:
2008-03-10

What is so great about PBI's?
In Arch Linux, for example, if I want something I just type:
pacman -S something
What is so difficult about that, except that it's less similar to the way Windows and MacOS do it?

(I'm not trying to bash here, I really don't understand it, please explain...)


All of the things that can lead it not to work. No internet connection, bad/old 3rd party software not working because of some problem with dependency x (rename, merged, marked unsafe by disro maintainers), typing errors, etc... While you don't have any problems, an unacceptable amount of people will have the problems and it just isn't compatible with that "it just works" feeling. (Also the source of "internet front-end" descriptions.) It's not difficult, it's just not that likely to work once you want the latest open source stuff that isn't in the repository or 3rd party software.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!
by Doc Pain on Fri 10th Apr 2009 20:50 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Stephen!"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

What is so great about PBI's?
In Arch Linux, for example, if I want something I just type:
pacman -S something
What is so difficult about that, except that it's less similar to the way Windows and MacOS do it?


In a standard FreeBSD environment, you usually type

pkg_add -r something

to install from a precompiled package, or, for example,

portinstall category/thing

if you wish to compile yourself. This will retrieve dependencies needed.

The goal of PBI is that the package already contains the dependencies.

The fact that PBIs are usually obtained using a web browser for first manually downloading them onto the hard disk and then executing them in order to start the installation is, in my opinion, a means to make "Windows" users feel comfortable. They're usually not used to a central means of searching, installing, deinstalling and upgrading software - that's what FreeBSD has its Ports Collection for. No, they know how to search for software on the web, using search engines and then downloading things from web pages. So PC-BSD allows them to keep it their way while installing a UNIX application, even involving things like "yes, ok, next, next, next, finish" to occupy you with activity during the installation that forces you to be present at the machine. :-)

PBIs could be offered for third party software by different vendors, that wouldn't be a problem because the tools to create PBI files are free. PC-BSD has its own "PBI shop" where you can search for things and download them.

It's worth mentioning that their PBI directory doesn√Ąt cover all the software that's available via Ports or packages, for example teTeX. But those who want LaTeX on their machine, instead of using KOffice, are usually smart enough to "pkg_add -r teTeX", which is again no problem even if you're using PC-BSD.

(I'm not trying to bash here, I really don't understand it, please explain...)


PC-BSD offers what most "Windows" users - who I think is the main target audience - are familiar with. And yes, I really think downloading software from the web and then manually installing it is old fashioned. :-)

Edited 2009-04-10 20:53 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!
by Liquidator on Sat 11th Apr 2009 05:51 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Stephen!"
Liquidator Member since:
2007-03-04

I just type


Yep, that's the problem

except that it's less similar to the way Windows and MacOS do it?


Yet another problem you pointed out here.
See...What is easier for you is not necessary for someone else.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by Stephen!
by Doc Pain on Sun 12th Apr 2009 15:30 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Stephen!"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

"I just type


Yep, that's the problem
"

Show me how to install software without doing any keytroke - without any. And show me masses of people doing so. :-)

By the way, it's not even possible to install "Windows" without touching the keyboard. If you define the fear of touching a key as a min habit of the average user... good luck. The "Windows" installer invites the user to "press the Enter key to continue" - in fact, I'm not sure what it says in English, but in German, it says to press the "input key" (Eingabetaste) which is a major problem for computer newbeies, because there's no such key (labeled) on the keyboard, the german version has the "arrow down and left" and "Enter", but no "Eingabe".

Keyboards are not so complicated as some people wish them to be. In the past, computer newbies made their way through C64s and through DOS, Do you want to tell me that people have gotten more and more stupid over the years?

I do support some FreeBSD systems in my family and for friends. When they ask me something, I can simply tell them: "Open a terminal, type 'sudo fsdb -aF' and everything is fine." When I hear my uncle giving someone his "professional" "Windows" advices, do you know how it sounds? He describes pictures, like in a picture book, like you read to children: "See the tiny litte blue orb? Click on this, no no, the other blue thing that looks like a letter. Fine. Now click on the green thing in the upper left, no, no in the upper left of the window, not the desktop. Which window? What do you see at the moment? Describe it to me. No, you're wrong, start again. Now enter the letters A B C, then the a with the circle around it, it's it's... press Alt, then Gr, then Q. No result?"

And I can even write someone a simple mail titled "Enter this at a terminal" and they can copy + paste it (using the middle mouse button, no keystrokes involved).

Or for diagnostics, I can advice "type '(dmesg; pciconf -lv; usbdevs -v; camcontrol list) | mail -s diags bla@bla.bla". Can you do so in "Windows"? Can you mail someone a list of files as an answer to the questions "Which files do you have there?"

The keyboard is still the main input method for computers. Even newbies should arrange with this fact. It isn't nothing bad per se. It's just how you learn to drive a car. :-)

Don't scare people off the keyboard, and don't try to imply that the mouse is generally more easily to handle. The best solution is to combine them, and to learn how to use them.

Remember people stepping on mice like a foot peal? Or putting the mouse onto the screen? Yes, it's so easy. :-)

Find out more here, if you like:

http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_mice.shtml

http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_icons.shtml

And I may repeat: Keyboards aren't complicated. They offer a more direct interface to the computer, giving the user the ability to formulate what he wants, instead of making choices out of a previously generated subset (which may not contain what he's searching for).

Yet another problem you pointed out here.
See...What is easier for you is not necessary for someone else.


Individuality. That's why there's PC-BSD for those who are familiar with the concepts "Windows" made them learn.

Reply Parent Score: 4