Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 18th May 2009 19:06 UTC
Linux We all know them. We all hate them. They are generally overdone, completely biased, or so vague they border on the edge of pointlessness (or toppled over said edge). Yes, I'm talking about those "Is Linux ready for the desktop" articles. Still, this one is different.
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RE[5]: *sigh*
by DavidSan on Tue 19th May 2009 04:19 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: *sigh*"
DavidSan
Member since:
2008-11-18

Linux is terrible managing sound. Any audio experte can tell you that. The problem is Linux is not a preemtive kernel by default, so real time audio relies on fast hardware an sometimes luck.

It was a problem back in 2002. With kernel 2.4. Fixed since a long time now.


No, it is not completely fixed. Not all distributions compile the thing for preemptive kernel, because it is optional.

I repeat the text from "Understanding the Linux Kernel":

When compiled with the "Preemptible Kernel" option, Linux 2.6 can arbitrarily interleave execution flows while they are in privileged mode. Besides Linux 2.6, a few other conventional, general-purpose Unix systems, such as Solaris and Mach 3.0 , are fully preemptive kernels. SVR4.2/MP introduces some fixed preemption points as a method to get limited preemption capability.


Not all distributions compile with preemptive kernel flag.

Can you read: preemptive kernel OPTION.

Can't you read, or something?


Of course I can read... Can you read whole sentences, not just the first three words?

Do you understand the problem with Linux? Not all distributions require to have preemptive kernel.

So you have gone from "Linux doesn't have preemption" to "Linux has only had it for 6 years".


I never said that... My first post I wrote:

....The problem is Linux is not a preemtive kernel by default, so real time audio relies on fast hardware an sometimes luck.


Do you speak English? Do you understand what preemptive kernel BY DEFAULT means?

It means it is optional, it is not required, you can by pass it.

You just have to read the whole sentence. Not just the first part and start bashing people.


Six years is a long, long time in the arena of rapidly-improving Linux.

Long enough so that audio latency issues that were once a problem have long ago been solved. As I said, I gave you three links to mature low-latency audio layers in current use on Linux.

You are seriously out of date with your attempted criticism.


Yeah, and you think that Audio apps are going to star appearing the same time the kernel is fixed... Magically, because thousands of developers were just waiting for the kernel to be fixed... Especially a "fixed" that is not fundamental for Linux to work, because it is optional.

To get critical Application, take years. Recently some products for audio have appeared on Linux, while better products have been on Windows and Mac for more than a decade.

If you do not believe me, ask Adobe how many years is projected to take Photoshop to be 64 bits on Mac OS X. Or how many years Microsoft needed to take Office from PowerPC to Intel and still no VB support? And they have money and the developers to do it?

Developing software is a very complex and difficult task. Applications do not appear like magic.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: *sigh*
by lemur2 on Tue 19th May 2009 05:44 in reply to "RE[5]: *sigh*"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

No, it is not completely fixed. Not all distributions compile the thing for preemptive kernel, because it is optional.

I repeat the text from "Understanding the Linux Kernel":


When compiled with the "Preemptible Kernel" option, Linux 2.6 can arbitrarily interleave execution flows while they are in privileged mode. Besides Linux 2.6, a few other conventional, general-purpose Unix systems, such as Solaris and Mach 3.0 , are fully preemptive kernels. SVR4.2/MP introduces some fixed preemption points as a method to get limited preemption capability.

Not all distributions compile with preemptive kernel flag.

Can you read: preemptive kernel OPTION.

Of course I can read... Can you read whole sentences, not just the first three words?

Do you understand the problem with Linux? Not all distributions require to have preemptive kernel.


Name one that doesn't.

....The problem is Linux is not a preemtive kernel by default, so real time audio relies on fast hardware an sometimes luck.


Name one that does.

It means it is optional, it is not required, you can by pass it.

You just have to read the whole sentence. Not just the first part and start bashing people.


Name a desktop distribution that ships with a non-premeptive kernel.

Long enough so that audio latency issues that were once a problem have long ago been solved. As I said, I gave you three links to mature low-latency audio layers in current use on Linux.

You are seriously out of date with your attempted criticism.


The aforementioned low-latency audio layers are the default on Linux desktop distributions. Ergo, the default (for Linux desktops) is to have ... a pre-emptive kernel.

Yeah, and you think that Audio apps are going to star appearing the same time the kernel is fixed... Magically, because thousands of developers were just waiting for the kernel to be fixed... Especially a "fixed" that is not fundamental for Linux to work, because it is optional.

To get critical Application, take years. Recently some products for audio have appeared on Linux, while better products have been on Windows and Mac for more than a decade.


Pfft.

http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/online/news/fast_forward_vlc_1_0_0_...

Best media player on any desktop platform, bar none.

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/05/05/the-mobile-music-netbook-l...

"The elements of Linux-based music making have reached a nice convergence with the release of Ubuntu 9.04 – the combination of a polished, mature Linux distribution with a newly-updated real-time kernel for low-latency audio is looking especially potent."


Cannot be beaten for portability, functionality and value-for-money-price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarok_(software)

Best music collection software on any desktop platform, bar none.

Developing software is a very complex and difficult task. Applications do not appear like magic.


Agreed. It is a good job that you are at least six years behind the times about desktop Linux, then, isn't it?

Edited 2009-05-19 05:50 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: *sigh*
by kirihito on Tue 19th May 2009 07:02 in reply to "RE[6]: *sigh*"
kirihito Member since:
2007-09-03


Name a desktop distribution that ships with a non-premeptive kernel.


By default? Ubuntu doesn't. You need to install linux-rt. Same with Mandriva.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: *sigh*
by lemur2 on Tue 19th May 2009 06:43 in reply to "RE[5]: *sigh*"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Yeah, and you think that Audio apps are going to star appearing the same time the kernel is fixed... Magically, because thousands of developers were just waiting for the kernel to be fixed... Especially a "fixed" that is not fundamental for Linux to work, because it is optional.

To get critical Application, take years. Recently some products for audio have appeared on Linux, while better products have been on Windows and Mac for more than a decade.

If you do not believe me, ask Adobe how many years is projected to take Photoshop to be 64 bits on Mac OS X. Or how many years Microsoft needed to take Office from PowerPC to Intel and still no VB support? And they have money and the developers to do it?

Developing software is a very complex and difficult task. Applications do not appear like magic.


Magic: ====>

http://www.renoise.com/

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/02/20/energyxt-25-is-here-is-awe...

http://www.creativepost.co.uk/

http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardour_(audio_processor)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Data

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperCollider

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChucK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_audio_software

<===== Enjoy.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: *sigh*
by El_Exigente on Wed 20th May 2009 08:09 in reply to "RE[6]: *sigh*"
El_Exigente Member since:
2007-01-08

"Yeah, and you think that Audio apps are going to star appearing the same time the kernel is fixed... Magically, because thousands of developers were just waiting for the kernel to be fixed... Especially a "fixed" that is not fundamental for Linux to work, because it is optional. (. . . )

Developing software is a very complex and difficult task. Applications do not appear like magic.


Magic: ====>

http://www.renoise.com/
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/02/20/energyxt-25-is-here-is-awe...
http://www.creativepost.co.uk/
http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardour_(audio_processor)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperCollider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csound
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChucK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_audio_software

"

Oh my.
Well, since you insist, let's just take a look at the apps you mention.

Renoise: Mod Tracker. Welcome to 1994!

EnergyXT: Did you actually read the user comments on link you posted?
Although that is not to say that it is not useful, but EnergyXT is not capable of being the heart of a pro studio. If you read the comments, you mightn't want to use it aat all - assuming, in the first place, that its design philosphy lends itself to the kind of music you want to make.

ArdourXchange: Good luck! Even DigiDesign can't (or, possibly, won't) make AAF's interoperable between their own apps! Unless the maintainers want to constantly be chasing a moving target, ArdourXchange is of questionable utility, even if only because its only purpose is to import AAF's into Ardour. Many DAW's have integrated AAF/OMF import and export as standard components or optional add-ons. ArdourXchange's inability to export Ardour sessions in AAF format is a very serious shortcoming.

As for Rosegarden and Ardour, all I can say is, you have no idea. These are completely unacceptable for real studios. There is a reason why professionals stay away from these apps in droves, although, to be fair, this could be a combination of the app itself, and the fact that they run on Linux. Yet, on the other hand, it is also necessary to take into account the extreme competitiveness of the world of profession recording and music production: if these apps offered any conceivable advantage over the more common Windows and OSX offerings, they would find a significant userbase. They haven't. If, for example, you have never engineered a recording session for paying clients, then it is possible to understand why you would think that these are anything more than amateur apps. In fact, this applies to your whole post: it could only have been drawn up by someone completely unfamilar with the subject at hand. Acceptable DAW's are: Nuendo, Pro Tools, Cubase, Sonar, Digital Performer, Logic. Traktion, Ableton Live, Sony Acid, and FL Studio are also extremely powerful and sophisticated music production environments as is Propellerheads Reason (although Reason is far too insular, in my view.) The one and only acceptable DAW available for Linux is the ported-from-Windows Reaper, and some people simply find it to be unacceptable (although it answers the needs of other people quite well.) However, regardless of the suitability of Reaper as a DAW, the adoption of Linux as a professional recording platform will always be as limited as the availability of professional-grade audio interfaces for it. (But such availability is to be understand a necessary but not a sufficient condition for broader adoption of Linux for professional music production,)

There seem to be some useful, if feature-limited, wave editors available for Linux.

As for Pure Data, SuperCollider, ChuckY, and Csound: Most musicians and sound engineers are not, and do not want to become, computer programmers. These highly complex and non-intuitive programming environments - which are also available for Windows and Mac, have, in spite of some of them being around since the 1990's, found only a very very limited userbase. There could be no more damning indictment of Linux's suitability - or lack thereof - for broad adoption by recording professionals and musicians than the fact that you have listed them among the "highlights" of Linux audio software. But then again, since you seem to be more or less unacquainted with the needs of musicians and recording professionals, perhaps we should not take that too seriously.

Edited 2009-05-20 08:16 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: *sigh*
by levi on Tue 19th May 2009 22:59 in reply to "RE[5]: *sigh*"
levi Member since:
2006-09-07


Do you speak English? Do you understand what preemptive kernel BY DEFAULT means?

It means it is optional, it is not required, you can by pass it.


So your argument is flawed. With linux you can have kernel the way you want with Windows you are stuck with one kernel which can't be good for every use. Do you agree ?

"DEFAULT with most distributions" ... but not all, right ? How about http://www.jacklab.org ?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: *sigh*
by DavidSan on Wed 20th May 2009 00:18 in reply to "RE[6]: *sigh*"
DavidSan Member since:
2008-11-18


Do you speak English? Do you understand what preemptive kernel BY DEFAULT means?

It means it is optional, it is not required, you can by pass it.


So your argument is flawed. With linux you can have kernel the way you want with Windows you are stuck with one kernel which can't be good for every use. Do you agree ?

"DEFAULT with most distributions" ... but not all, right ? How about http://www.jacklab.org ?


You are completely out of the discussion. The main reason and the main problem with Linux is that it is its heavily fragmented user base. Everyone is pulling its own way.

Do you honestly believe that a normal user who just want to edit audio is gonna start asking: Which distro has preemptive kernel? Where is my C ompiler to make the stuff work? There are no good audio apps I am gonna make my own!

Get real. You were telling Linux is wonderful for audio, I told you what the problem with audio was. You said it is fixed. No it is not fixed. Other people in the thread have told you distros by name that do not come with preemptive kernel by default. And then you start telling me I am spreading FUD... I am not spreading FUD, I am telling you the problem with Linux on Audio.

Now you expect a normal user to be hunting a distro, or compiling the code themselves. If you really believe that's the strategy for taking control of the desktop... Keep dreaming. Linux is not cool if you can do your work with it or if you have to become a computer geek to make it work, because there are other computers that just work.

What most audio people use? Mac OS X, and some Windows.

Reply Parent Score: 1