Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 2nd Jul 2009 18:51 UTC, submitted by snydeq
Internet & Networking We here at OSNews have taken somewhat of an interest in the new HTML5 video and audio tags, which should - some day - make embedding audio and video material into web pages as easy and straightforward as embedding images, allowing the web to finally remove the shackles of dreadful Flash video. Sadly, the problem with these new tags are the codecs; as it turns out, browser makers have not reached an agreement about what codecs to choose for video, with mostly Apple throwing a spanner in the works, and Microsoft shining in absence.
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RE[7]: Ogg Theora
by lemur2 on Mon 6th Jul 2009 02:53 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Ogg Theora"
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

Let's take a snippet from the MPEGLA press release[1] you provided: "# Internet broadcast (non-subscription, not title-by-title) – Since this market is still developing, no royalties will be payable for internet broadcast services (non-subscription, not title-by-title) during the initial term of the license (which runs through December 31, 2010) and then shall not exceed the over-the-air free broadcast TV encoding fee during the renewal term.
It says that Internet broadcast fees won't exceed OTA broadcast fees during the next renewal term (2011-2016). It doesn't say what will be inside the renewal terms in 2011. It doesn't say what will be the maximum royalty for Internet broadcasts. It doesn't even say that Internet broadcasts will have royalties. Likely? Sure. Confirmed? Not by that press release. That is my problem. Even if it's likely, I don't want to deal with speculations. "

Here are some more references to help you:

http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/decoding-the-html-5...
Another licensing issue that is often overlooked is the ambiguity of MPEG LA's future patent royalty collection plans. MPEG LA has established broadcast fees that licensees will be required to pay for distributing free (or ad-supported) streaming video content on the Internet. These fees will not be instated until the end of 2010, when the second H.264 licensing period goes into effect. The language used in the current license treats Internet streaming just like over-the-air television, implying that the licensees will have to pay broadcast fees per-region. That could prove to be extremely costly for Internet video providers who make their content available around the world.

MPEG LA has provided no guidance, clarification, or insight into what the broadcast licensing fees will look like. When asked directly about the issue, MPEG LA representatives say that they haven't even decided yet themselves. The worry is that H.264 licensing for content distributors could potentially become too costly to sustain widespread use for streaming Internet video.


The Ars article gives a fairly good overall summary of this issue.

Under the heading of "The compression efficiency debate" there are some strong points made that are pertinent to what you are apparently trying to research.

The extent to which Theora lags behind H.264 is often overstated and the codec is, in actuality, in better shape than is generally thought by many of its critics. Google open source programs manager Chris DiBona is skeptical, however, and articulated the search giant's concerns about Theora's compression efficiency during the debate on the WHATWG mailing list.

"If [YouTube] were to switch to Theora and maintain even a semblance of the current YouTube quality it would take up most available bandwidth across the internet," DiBona said. "The most recent public number was just over 1 billion video streams a day, and I've seen what we've had to do to make that happen, and it is a staggering amount of bandwidth."

DiBona's quality claim was broadly disputed by Theora supporters on the mailing list. Mozilla's Mike Shaver encouraged DiBona to examine the most recent Theora developments, suggesting that the latest improvements have helped to significantly close the gap in compression efficiency.

"I don't think the bandwidth delta is very much with recent (and format-compatible) improvements to the Theora encoders," he wrote. "[Codec improvements] are a big part of what we've been funding, and the results have been great already. I'd like to demonstrate them to you, because I suspect that you'd be a better-armed advocate within Google for unencumbered video if you could see what it's really capable of now."

Xiph's Gregory Maxwell responded to DiBona's mailing list post by publishing a comparison that aims to demonstrate Theora's efficacy relative to H.264 in the context of YouTube-quality streaming video.

"Using a simple test case I show that Theora is competitive and even superior to some of the files that Google is distributing today on YouTube," he wrote. "Theora isn't the most efficient video codec available right now. But it is by no means bad, and it is substantially better than many other widely used options. By conventional criteria Theora is competitive. It also has the substantial advantage of being unencumbered, reasonable in computational complexity, and entirely open source. People are often confused by the correct observation that Theora doesn't provide the state of the art in bitrate vs quality, and take that to mean that Theora does poorly when in reality it does quite well."


http://www.streaminglearningcenter.com/articles/46/1/H264-Royalties...

http://www.streamingmedia.com/article.asp?id=11011&page=1&c=7

Enjoy ... or perhaps not.

Edited 2009-07-06 02:55 UTC

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 2

RE[8]: Ogg Theora
by Wrawrat on Mon 6th Jul 2009 05:55 in reply to "RE[7]: Ogg Theora"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

Here are some more references to help you:

http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/decoding-the-html-5...
"Another licensing issue that is often overlooked is the ambiguity of MPEG LA's future patent royalty collection plans. MPEG LA has established broadcast fees that licensees will be required to pay for distributing free (or ad-supported) streaming video content on the Internet. These fees will not be instated until the end of 2010, when the second H.264 licensing period goes into effect. The language used in the current license treats Internet streaming just like over-the-air television, implying that the licensees will have to pay broadcast fees per-region. That could prove to be extremely costly for Internet video providers who make their content available around the world.

MPEG LA has provided no guidance, clarification, or insight into what the broadcast licensing fees will look like. When asked directly about the issue, MPEG LA representatives say that they haven't even decided yet themselves. The worry is that H.264 licensing for content distributors could potentially become too costly to sustain widespread use for streaming Internet video.
"
The second part is definitely more interesting than the one you have highlighted. If the MPEGLA haven't decided what they will do, then we are only speculating. For all we know, perhaps my own speculation (royalty-free for non-commercial usage) could turn out the right guess!

Now, I understand why content distributors are worried, especially with the wording of the current licensing terms while needing to make a choice for their future. Therefore, the search for alternatives like Theora is completely justified. Still, it only support my point that we don't know the next licensing terms right now. This is what I claim from the beginning. Is that clear enough?

Under the heading of "The compression efficiency debate" there are some strong points made that are pertinent to what you are apparently trying to research.

Apparently? Well, you just made my day! You don't know what I am doing exactly, even less who I am, yet you dismiss it completely? Who are you to make such calls? And what's the deal with these "strong points"? Are you trying to imply that I am wasting my time with H.264? I am quite sure that I mentioned that H.264 is only a target, as I am researching an algorithm. It might give a better or worse compression, hence why the research.

In case you are interested, I would gladly share you my subject and why H.264 in a PM (not because of confidentiality, but rather because we are drifting wayyyyyyy off-topic).

I can understand why some people are strong free ("libre") advocates, but I don't understand such zealotry against patents or anything that isn't "libre". You are using hundreds of patented design in your daily life, yet I am sure you are enjoying these contraptions... ;)

Edited 2009-07-06 06:00 UTC

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 2

RE[9]: Ogg Theora
by lemur2 on Mon 6th Jul 2009 07:08 in reply to "RE[8]: Ogg Theora"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I can understand why some people are strong free ("libre") advocates, but I don't understand such zealotry against patents or anything that isn't "libre". You are using hundreds of patented design in your daily life, yet I am sure you are enjoying these contraptions...


Patents are not supposed to apply to mathematics. Results of scientific and mathematical research (such as what you yourself apparently are involved in, and I say apparently only to indicate that I cannot verify what you are involved in, and not as any intended or implied disbelief) are supposed to be community knowledge.

Patents are for inventions. Applied knowledge. A particular "method" of doing such-and-such a task.

Ergo, no patent should apply to a codec. You cannot get anything more like pure mathematics than that. It is simply a mathematical transform from one stream of data to another using an algorithm.

So when a company wants to use a specific piece of mathematics to extract a royalty out of the community, especially when there is copious prior art on the "methods" for employing that mathematics (i.e. lots of prior art on the general idea of codecs themselves) it is more than just prudent, it is nigh-on imperative, to oppose that company being able to extract any monetary reward from gaming the patent system.

This is not "zealotry" of any kind, it is simply plain protecting oneself and other community members from rip-off merchants.

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 2