Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 20th Jul 2009 19:16 UTC
Sun Solaris, OpenSolaris The Linux desktop has come a long way. It's a fully usable, stable, and secure operating system that can be used quite easily by the masses. Not too long ago, Sun figured they could do the same by starting Project Indiana, which is supposed to deliver a complete distribution of OpenSolaris in a manner similar to GNU/Linux. After using the latest version for a while, I'm wondering: why?
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RE[6]: personal impressions...
by kawazu on Wed 22nd Jul 2009 06:38 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: personal impressions..."
kawazu
Member since:
2005-12-11

Hi there... ;)

I am not really trying to evangelize you. I am merely asking a question; have you ever seen the DTrace stuff being done earlier on any OS? No you havent. And wouldnt you find it useful, working as a developer?


Talking about DTrace, I find this quite useful actually for doing server-sided diagnostics. On the desktop, doing Java development, so far I simply haven't encountered situations in which using the debugging facilities provided by Eclipse or, even better, by NetBeans did leave me wanting/needing more. So I agree DTrace is cool, but so far I don't need it on my desktop. If this is subject to change, my operating system requirements will, too. ;)


...
I really dont understand your line of thought? ZFS is unique. DTrace is unique, just as you have read it can do unique things no other common OS has ever been able to do before in history.


ZFS indeed is unique and maybe _the_ killer feature I see in OpenSolaris (after all, that's why people usually are to point this out as the first argument "pro OpenSolaris"... ;) ). Yes, I want ZFS on a file server providing hundreds of gigabytes, or even terabytes, of disk space to a bunch of local users, and doing so without requiring me to worry about things like "how to share this mess?", "how to do RAID et al?" or "what to do if one drive fails?". However I still don't see the benefit ZFS provides on a mobile device with a single S-ATA disk unlikely to be really expanded as 99% of the features ZFS offers simply are lost / not required here. On a notebook which usually is short on resources no matter how new it is, I don't want to waste resources on features I don't need. ;)


No OS. And you call DTrace "no distinguishing feature"? You are joking. You have never seen anything like DTrace before in your entire life. Never.


Please, feel free to completely read my posts. ;) I know these features are unique. But they aren't from a desktop user point of view who just needs some UI to start NetBeans and maybe a web browser and a mail client. From that point of view, OpenSolaris is "just another GNOME based Unix distribution" (and, given I decide to use XFCE which I prefer for various reasons, I don't even have nautilus and Time Slider anymore, so it's even more vanilla).




And for instance, when you say that SUN should target JavaFX for OpenSolaris first and SUN is being "dumb" not to do so. Why in earth should SUN target JavaFX for OpenSolaris? The majority of the Java developers work on Windows.


This, overally, gives a Java developer one less reason to even look into OpenSolaris.


In MY point of view, SUN would be dumb if they didnt target the greatest Java market: Windows. First, pick low hanging fruit, and then at last, release JavaFX for smaller OSes. That is sound business strategy and not dumb?



Yes it does. Because it is narrow-minded and blind. Let me give you an example: I was doing quite some effort trying to convince my fellow developers that the Sun tool chain (including OpenSolaris) is good if you're a Java developer. Some eventually installed OpenSolaris to their workstations and also liked what they saw (indeed, running on a workstation which is not a notebook, OpenSolaris is a pretty nice citizen once all hardware is supported). Then, JavaFX finally appears, with the Java developers wanting to have a look. And now, all of a sudden, I am being asked why on earth JavaFX (Sun) atop Java(Sun) is released for virtually anything except for OpenSolaris(Sun)? To all those who, following my enthusiasm and inspiration, decided to use OpenSolaris, this decision now has ended up leaving them incapable of playing with the latest and greatest in Java RIA development just because of this decision. This is dumb, dumb, dumb! If trying to market JavaFX as a "developer tool" _and_ OpenSolaris as a "developer operating system", OpenSolaris just _has_ to be supported from the very first moment. Of course, one can focus on doing marketing for JavaFX, completely ignoring all the other products the same company is doing marketing for at the same time. But that doesn't sound very reasonable. And, overally, I wonder whether this kind of (IMHO) short-sighted marketing strategy might have to do with Suns recent, say, "business difficulties"...




You know, I really dont understand how you think.


Because you just picked some of my statements and commented them without bothering reading all the text I wrote. This is good for you, of course, but of course this way you aren't likely to understand. ;)

So, again, a simple question. Take some up-to-date GNU/Linux distribution and a current OpenSolaris installment, and just compare the desktop UI and the applications bundled with them (i.o.w. no command-line tools like dtrace and no system infrastructure like ZFS). What, exclusively talking about the _desktop_ sphere, does OpenSolaris offer that the GNU/Linux distribution doesn't?

Reply Parent Score: 2

Kebabbert Member since:
2007-07-27

"So, again, a simple question. Take some up-to-date GNU/Linux distribution and a current OpenSolaris installment, and just compare the desktop UI and the applications bundled with them (i.o.w. no command-line tools like dtrace and no system infrastructure like ZFS). What, exclusively talking about the _desktop_ sphere, does OpenSolaris offer that the GNU/Linux distribution doesn't?"

If you compare the Desktop UI and the applications in OpenSolaris to Linux, there is no difference. But that is THE reason why OpenSolaris was being made. It should look similar to Linux, but offer an Server Enterprise OS with unique features for servers and developers.

If OpenSolaris didnt look similar to Linux, then there would be many more complaints. Trust me, this is a fact. For instance, Solaris has a different userland than GNU/Linux and there are lots of complaints "Solaris behaves strangely, it is not Linux". The answer is: "Correct observation, because it is Unix. Not Linux. Talk to real Unix gurus and _they_ think Linux behaves strangely". Somehow people think that Linux is the "original" and Unix is an offspring when it is in fact the opposite. SUN has to adopt to the changing market by releasing OpenSolaris. And now when OpenSolaris is similar to Linux, there are other complaints "why does OpenSolaris look like Linux??? I do not want that!!!". But, yes you do. You want it to look like Linux. Trust me.



As for JavaFX, I dont agree with you. To me it is natural that a company wants to satisfy the majority of it's customers. For instance, consider these scenarios where we have two different bugs that need to be adressed, one at a time. One bug affects a minority of your customer and the other affects the majority.
1) Address the minority of your customers first, and then take care of the bug that affects the majority.
2) Adress the majority first, and then take care of the bug that affects the minority.

If I were a manager, I would choose scenario 2) first. To me it is obvious, but I understand that there are people not sharing my view. JavaFX arrives first to Windows, then OpenSolaris. This is a correct strategic decision by SUN - and not dumb. In my point of view.

I rather prioritize a majority of people sick in the swine flue, and afterwards tend to the minority which has asthma, allergy, etc - than vice versa. The majority first, then the minority.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: personal impressions...
by kawazu on Wed 22nd Jul 2009 08:46 in reply to "RE[7]: personal impressions..."
kawazu Member since:
2005-12-11


...
should look similar to Linux, but offer an Server Enterprise OS with unique features for servers and developers.


Yes. That's what I mean, and that's what I think OpenSolaris is - an operating system with a set of incredibly smart and helpful feature for _servers_. Nice to see we agree here. ;)





"Solaris behaves strangely, it is not Linux". The answer is: "Correct observation, because it is Unix.
Not Linux. Talk to real Unix gurus and _they_ think Linux behaves strangely".


No. A "real" Unix guru will know how to make her/himself home on be that Solaris or HP-UX or AIX or GNU/Linux or any *BSD system rather quickly. This comparison sort of reminds me of an MSCE used to Windows complaining that Linux behaves strangely because it behaves different to Windows. Whatever.



Somehow people think that Linux is the "original" and Unix is an offspring when it is in fact the opposite.


No. Those who are deep enough into technical details to really care know rather well what Linux is, compared to the Unix history (== an "open source re-implementation" of Unix created in days in which no one eventually dared to think about something like an "open" Solaris). And those who don't know, the "end users" and desktop users, don't care anyhow, they also won't care about MacOS X partly being a *BSD system. They simply want work to be done.



...
1) Address the minority of your customers first, and then take care of the bug that affects the majority.
2) Adress the majority first, and then take care of the bug that affects the minority.
...



This works out perfectly well as long as you have only one product to sell and not at all worry about whether marketing one product might drive potential customers away from other products you offer at the same time. I don't even think this would have required to put priority to the OpenSolaris version of JavaFX. But, the message that comes across here is: "You chose our developer operating system? Well sorry to say so but you've become a second class citizen regarding our JavaFX technology, but thanks for choosing our operating system nevertheless." From an operating system customer (and yes, being into OpenSolaris I am _also_ directly a Sun customer), this is surely to influence future decisions in that direction, as I might wonder whether I always will stay a second class citizen when choosing that very system...

Reply Parent Score: 1