Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 17th Aug 2009 09:34 UTC, submitted by moochris
BeOS & Derivatives I had been following the mailing list for the Haiku project the past week with growing interest. The topic of discussion? Why, the alpha release, of course! What needs to be done, who needs to prepare what, and most importantly, what schedule are they going to settle on? Well, after numerous insightful back-and-forths, the community has settled on a schedule.
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Good and bad
by WendelFree on Mon 17th Aug 2009 12:23 UTC
WendelFree
Member since:
2009-08-17

I'm a longtime BeOS user and this is a milestone I've been looking forward to for a long, long time.

Unfortunately, I have a few problems with the Haiku OS and the project itself that needs to be addressed.

Code base
---------
The quality of the code base leaves a lot to be desired, and this of course trickles all the way up to the user.

For instance, the release from last week 1) didn't boot on my SMP machine (so I boot in non-smp mode), 2) didn't work with the my nvidia card (so I switched), 3) eventually corrupted my hard drive (which, fortunately, is only for testing.)

While Haiku isn't a target for nasty hackers yet, it's bound to be if it gains widespread usage. The network stack looks completely unaudited with respect to security, and I suspect a lot of the other subsystems suffers in similar ways.

Fixing these things late is painful, so please start working on this early!

And yes, I've submitted bug reports ;)

Project and focus
-----------------
There's too much focus on icons, web pages and sugar. I couldn't care less about these things right now. I know that in an open source project, people tend to work on what they want to, but some management is always possible in order to direct focus. And that focus should be code auditing, and making sure stability and security issues are being worked on.

In short, I don't think an Alpha release is the right thing to do now. There's just too many issues.

That said, I really wish Haiku all the luck in the future!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Good and bad
by ModeenF on Mon 17th Aug 2009 12:45 in reply to "Good and bad"
ModeenF Member since:
2005-07-06

I have recently switch from Zeta to Haiku as my developer platform and running 3 system (Dell D610, Dell x300 and an aspire one) I have no real problem with any of them.

This are how most of us developer (I think) sees Haiku so we need more hardware to test Haiku on. When it comes to driver, yes Haiku will only work on Nvidia cards older than 7xxx (x850, or so for ATI) but our VESA mode had a lot of work recently

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Good and bad
by WendelFree on Mon 17th Aug 2009 12:52 in reply to "RE: Good and bad"
WendelFree Member since:
2009-08-17

This are how most of us developer (I think) sees Haiku so we need more hardware to test Haiku on. When it comes to driver, yes Haiku will only work on Nvidia cards older than 7xxx (x850, or so for ATI) but our VESA mode had a lot of work recently


Yes, but Vesa mode on many newer cards is too slow to contemplate.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Good and bad
by aldeck on Mon 17th Aug 2009 13:05 in reply to "Good and bad"
aldeck Member since:
2006-12-07

I'm a longtime BeOS user and this is a milestone I've been looking forward to for a long, long time.

Unfortunately, I have a few problems with the Haiku OS and the project itself that needs to be addressed.

Code base
---------
The quality of the code base leaves a lot to be desired, and this of course trickles all the way up to the user.


No hard feelings, but i find it a bit severe from you to make such assumption on the "quality of the code base" just because you stumbled across a few bugs on your hardware ;)
A lot of attention is made over quality and every commits is reviewed by several people, and quite stricly. I'm not even sure what you mean by quality, but i bet that it's a lot higher than the original closed source BeOS.

For instance, the release from last week 1) didn't boot on my SMP machine (so I boot in non-smp mode), 2) didn't work with the my nvidia card (so I switched), 3) eventually corrupted my hard drive (which, fortunately, is only for testing.)


In fact, there is no "release from last week", because there hasn't been any release yet. Don't take me wrong, thanks a lot for testing and reporting bugs, but by trying the nighlties, you're essentially testing a work in progress code. That's why there's gonna be a code freeze before release. I'm using Haiku for developing Haiku for several months now on a recent quad core system and never had any serious problems.
Btw, concerning your hard drive corruption, i doubt the whole disk was corrupted, i suppose it was just your Haiku partition.

While Haiku isn't a target for nasty hackers yet, it's bound to be if it gains widespread usage. The network stack looks completely unaudited with respect to security, and I suspect a lot of the other subsystems suffers in similar ways.


Security is a problem that will be taken seriously, but there are other priorities now (and a limited work force).

Fixing these things late is painful, so please start working on this early!


Well, not doing it now doesn't mean we don't think about it, and we try to prepare for it to the best we can.


Project and focus
-----------------
There's too much focus on icons, web pages and sugar. I couldn't care less about these things right now. I know that in an open source project, people tend to work on what they want to, but some management is always possible in order to direct focus. And that focus should be code auditing, and making sure stability and security issues are being worked on.


I think you're exagerating a bit, i've been in bug fixing mode for about a year now, and several bugs are fixed every day. Non system devs focus on their area of expertise and work hard on the site and other important parts of a release.

In short, I don't think an Alpha release is the right thing to do now. There's just too many issues.


It has been discussed in large, and most of the current user/tester base have very little problems on their hardware, so the only way to fix the remaining bugs is to start releasing the baby ;)

That said, I really wish Haiku all the luck in the future!


Thanks, for you encouragements!

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Good and bad
by WendelFree on Mon 17th Aug 2009 13:28 in reply to "RE: Good and bad"
WendelFree Member since:
2009-08-17

No hard feelings, but i find it a bit severe from you to make such assumption on the "quality of the code base" just because you stumbled across a few bugs on your hardware ;)



Why do you assume I assumed? I have actually studied and hacked on the Haiku code (mostly interested because I had intimate knowledge of the NewOS code base.)

And overall, the code quality isn't impressive. That doesn't mean it can't improve. It just means it has to be a priority.

I have already touched the security issue. Another issue for me has been SMP support (not just last weeks build - I have tried a lot of builds over time), and I have a rough idea why. The locking isn't always done properly, and the code base mostly ignores read reorderings that will bite you increasingly on newer CPU's (that's right, Intel/AMD cpu's actually does reorderings these days - so does your compiler...)

Edited 2009-08-17 13:31 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Good and bad
by Parry Hotter on Mon 17th Aug 2009 21:40 in reply to "Good and bad"
Parry Hotter Member since:
2007-07-20

Hi gr00ber.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Good and bad
by StephenBeDoper on Wed 19th Aug 2009 03:39 in reply to "Good and bad"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

There's too much focus on icons, web pages and sugar. I couldn't care less about these things right now. I know that in an open source project, people tend to work on what they want to, but some management is always possible in order to direct focus.


I seriously doubt that any degree of management or directed focus will turn an illustrator or web dev into a competent C++/kernel developer (or vice-versa, for that matter).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Good and bad
by WendelFree on Wed 19th Aug 2009 16:19 in reply to "RE: Good and bad"
WendelFree Member since:
2009-08-17

"There's too much focus on icons, web pages and sugar. I couldn't care less about these things right now. I know that in an open source project, people tend to work on what they want to, but some management is always possible in order to direct focus.


I seriously doubt that any degree of management or directed focus will turn an illustrator or web dev into a competent C++/kernel developer (or vice-versa, for that matter).
"

You obviously haven't seen the Google Tech Talk on Haiku. The core developers stressed icons, cursors and other completely non-kernel things more than anything else.

Reply Parent Score: 1