Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 2nd Sep 2009 19:20 UTC
Legal Apple has responded to Psystar's new lawsuit today, stating that it is nothing but a stall tactic on Psystar's end. While I could just paraphrase whatever the filing reads, I decided to take this opportunity to address a number of sentiments and analogies often made in comment threads (not necessarily on OSNews).
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Here we go again!
by Hakime on Thu 3rd Sep 2009 05:38 UTC
Hakime
Member since:
2005-11-16

Again the usual stupidity from Holwerda, lets go through crap, shall we?

"Nor Mercedes, nor Suzuki have any obligation to make it easier for you to perform such an engine swap"

Neither Apple, what is your point?

"Mac OS X, however, while designed to run on Macs, is very easily installed on non-Mac machines. Snow Leopard is a little too new (but lots of people are already successful at installing it non-Apple labelled machines), but it's completely trivial to install Leopard on a non-Apple labelled machine. "

It is because Apple allows it. If Apple would really like to play like Microsoft, it would enforce the use of activations or if they get pissed off by all of this at Cupertino, they could develop hardware recognition features that would prevent the installation of the OS on a non-Apple machine. The fact that you can install it quite easily on a non-Apple machine is just because Apple is not willing to implement something that would prevent you to do that. But that's not even the question, being installable or not. You miss totally the point.

If you would take the analogy of the car, you would say, hey Mercedes is building a super fast engine, is Fiat allowed to force them to give it away so that Fiat can install this engine in a car that they specifically assembled so that it can fit it? This is the real question and the answer is no way.

The Mercedez engine is an intellectual property of Mercedez, they spend money, human resources to develop it and in any way they can be forced to give it away to a competitor even if this competitor happens to have a car where the engine could fit. The same thing is applicable to Apple. Apple owns OS X, it had developed it, spent money doing so, so it has the right not to give it away because indeed competition and innovation won't be possible then. Psystar is competing in the market as Apple, the same one (a fact that you completely miss and miserably fail to understand), so Psystar can't force a competitor to give a peace of software that was developed by the competitor and hope in the same time to compete with this same competitor on the same market. People who would argue against that have to be totally stupid.

"Heck, the internals of a Mac consist of the exact same parts as any other random machine. In fact, a lot of other manufacturers even use higher quality parts."

Stupid argument, a plane or a car is made of a ton of common components manufactured by the same companies, does that mean that Airbus and Boeing planes are identical? I don't think so. Plus having the same parts does not mean equality in build design, architecture and so on. Open a dam Mac Pro, that's infinitely better designed than any pc workstation on the market, still having some identical parts as Dell of HP workstations.

"However, even if you are successful at putting a Mercedes engine in your Suzuki, nobody is going to care. Mercedes won't sue you, Suzuki won't sue you."

Apple won't sue either. Mercedez is not happy at all if they know that their engines are being moved around. Apple does the same, it gives you a Software license agreement (a lot of car engines have also detailed agreements that the user should follow before using them) and if you don't agree and violate it, basically Apple can't know it as long as you do your things by yourself. And this the point that you miss, as long as you as user don't try to make a business of violating the software agreement, that's fine. Apple has no way to check if users are installing OS X on a pc for their personal usage. Again because Apple does not do anything to prevent you to do that besides asking you not to do it.

But the case of Psystar is totally different. They are violating the software agreement and making business of that. This is where Apple can sue them because again Psystar is stealing an intellectual property and use it to compete on the same market where the owner of this intellectual property is competing.

"You can even make a business out of doing something like that. In fact, this is exactly what many smaller car manufacturers do. Spyker uses Audi engines. Pagani Zonda uses Mercedes engines. Weissman uses BMW engines."

What? But this has nothing to do with your previous statement. Here you refer to manufacturers which have licensed third party engines. Audi, Mercedez or BMW build engines for this companies because they pay for that as much as Intel build processors for Apple or Rolls-Royce is building engines for Boeing. Those companies don't somehow take a mercedez engine somewhere and put then in their car, are you crazy?

"These smaller car companies buy engines from bigger brands, and build cars around them. They even tweak said engines for better performance if they have to. Psystar is doing the exact same thing: they are buying legal copies of Mac OS X, and build computers around them."

You don't know what you are talking about. Those care companies license third party engines, engines that are specifically built for this sort of cars. It is possible because Mercedex or BMZ are not only car manufacturers but also engines manufacturers, they sell engines to other car companies. If Intel starts to sell its own computer, does that mean that they need to give away any technologies built with it? No way, they can continue to sell processors to competitors and keep its own technology for itself, being software of hardware.

Besides that those engines are not the same ones between those brands, this has nothing to do with the Psystar case. Psystar is doing something that Apple is not allowing in the first place, Psystar is stealing Apple technology as much as a random compagny would start to steal Toyota hybrid technology.

By the way, if you want to speak about car, be sure that you know what you are talking about. If a take your Pagani Zonda example, i note that the engines of those cars are of the type AMG V12. Those engines are produced by Mercedes-AMG GmbH, subsidiary of the Mercedes-Benz car company specializing in high-performance luxury cars.

"Even if Audi, Mercedes, and BMW stopped selling engines to those smaller brands, those smaller brands could still, technically, simply buy complete cars, rip out their engines, and discard of the remaining carcasses. "

No way stupid dude..... Can you believe one second that a luxury manufacturer like Pagani Zonda will do that?

"In fact, coach-builders (which are commercial enterprises!) do something similar: you provide a donor car, they strip it until only the chassis or chassis and engine are left, and then put different components on top. "

Out of topic, you will anyway face the car authority for driving a car which is not approved. Trying to say that you can do whatever you want with a car and keep driving it without consequences shows how foolish you are.

"Second of all, this analogy is flawed because Psystar is not trying to install Mac OS X on ready-made machines from for example Dell or HP. "

What makes Psystar different from Dell or HP? They all compete against Apple. Psystar competes against Apple on the same market, why installing OS X illegally on their machines is different from Dell or HP? I mean stop the non sense, this is completely crap what you are saying, this is child level reasoning.

Edited 2009-09-03 05:57 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Here we go again!
by npcomplete on Thu 3rd Sep 2009 09:58 in reply to "Here we go again!"
npcomplete Member since:
2009-08-21



If you would take the analogy of the car, you would say, hey Mercedes is building a super fast engine, is Fiat allowed to force them to give it away so that Fiat can install this engine in a car that they specifically assembled so that it can fit it? This is the real question and the answer is no way.

The Mercedez engine is an intellectual property of Mercedez, they spend money, human resources to develop it and in any way they can be forced to give it away to a competitor even if this competitor happens to have a car where the engine could fit. The same thing is applicable to Apple. Apple owns OS X, it had developed it, spent money doing so, so it has the right not to give it away because indeed competition and innovation won't be possible then. Psystar is competing in the market as Apple, the same one (a fact that you completely miss and miserably fail to understand), so Psystar can't force a competitor to give a peace of software that was developed by the competitor and hope in the same time to compete with this same competitor on the same market. People who would argue against that have to be totally stupid.

"Heck, the internals of a Mac consist of the exact same parts as any other random machine. In fact, a lot of other manufacturers even use higher quality parts."

Stupid argument, a plane or a car is made of a ton of common components manufactured by the same companies, does that mean that Airbus and Boeing planes are identical? ...

"However, even if you are successful at putting a Mercedes engine in your Suzuki, nobody is going to care. Mercedes won't sue you, Suzuki won't sue you."

Apple won't sue either. Mercedez is not happy at all if they know that their engines are being moved around. Apple does the same, it gives you a Software license agreement (a lot of car engines have also detailed agreements that the user should follow before using them) and if you don't agree and violate it, basically Apple can't know it as long as you do your things by yourself. And this the point that you miss, as long as you as user don't try to make a business of violating the software agreement, that's fine. Apple has no way to check if users are installing OS X on a pc for their personal usage. Again because Apple does not do anything to prevent you to do that besides asking you not to do it.

But the case of Psystar is totally different. They are violating the software agreement and making business of that. This is where Apple can sue them because again Psystar is stealing an intellectual property and use it to compete on the same market where the owner of this intellectual property is competing.

"You can even make a business out of doing something like that. In fact, this is exactly what many smaller car manufacturers do. Spyker uses Audi engines. Pagani Zonda uses Mercedes engines. Weissman uses BMW engines."

What? But this has nothing to do with your previous statement. Here you refer to manufacturers which have licensed third party engines. Audi, Mercedez or BMW build engines for this companies because they pay for that as much as Intel build processors for Apple or Rolls-Royce is building engines for Boeing. Those companies don't somehow take a mercedez engine somewhere and put then in their car, are you crazy?

"These smaller car companies buy engines from bigger brands, and build cars around them. They even tweak said engines for better performance if they have to. Psystar is doing the exact same thing: they are buying legal copies of Mac OS X, and build computers around them."

You don't know what you are talking about. Those care companies license third party engines, engines that are specifically built for this sort of cars. It is possible because Mercedex or BMZ are not only car manufacturers but also engines manufacturers, they sell engines to other car companies. If Intel starts to sell its own computer, does that mean that they need to give away any technologies built with it? No way, they can continue to sell processors to competitors and keep its own technology for itself, being software of hardware.

Besides that those engines are not the same ones between those brands, this has nothing to do with the Psystar case. Psystar is doing something that Apple is not allowing in the first place, Psystar is stealing Apple technology as much as a random compagny would start to steal Toyota hybrid technology.

By the way, if you want to speak about car, be sure that you know what you are talking about. If a take your Pagani Zonda example, i note that the engines of those cars are of the type AMG V12. Those engines are produced by Mercedes-AMG GmbH, subsidiary of the Mercedes-Benz car company specializing in high-performance luxury cars.

"Even if Audi, Mercedes, and BMW stopped selling engines to those smaller brands, those smaller brands could still, technically, simply buy complete cars, rip out their engines, and discard of the remaining carcasses. "

No way stupid dude..... Can you believe one second that a luxury manufacturer like Pagani Zonda will do that?


In the end the car analogy doesn't really apply since software is a license, but in trying to discredit Thom for his car analogy, you pretty much got everything wrong.

Since car parts are considered physically owned property, his analogy would stand IF software were also treated as property.

You can do whatever you want with such car parts, including building a multi-million dollar business without ever asking for any kind of permission from whatsoever, as long as you have legitimately purchased each part you're using.

And by "legitimately purchase", that can be anything from purchasing straight from the factory to grabbing parts from a junkyard, to donor cars, whatever.

Have you ever looked at the aftermarket car business? It isn't just about reselling, at its core it's about taking something someone else has produced and modifying it then selling that modified product. Again, you can't get sued for it (patent infringements not withstanding) and no need for permission.

In fact reverse engineering, or just straight forward engineering if the design is obvious, is routine in this business everyone designs a little widget of their own to modify someone else's or to convert or adapt one piece to another piece. As long as they aren't infringing on patents that haven't expired (some have, especially for older engine designs which is one of the reasons why they're so popular for ground-up race engine building), there's no need for any IP licensing either.



"In fact, coach-builders (which are commercial enterprises!) do something similar: you provide a donor car, they strip it until only the chassis or chassis and engine are left, and then put different components on top. "

Out of topic, you will anyway face the car authority for driving a car which is not approved. Trying to say that you can do whatever you want with a car and keep driving it without consequences shows how foolish you are.


huh??? There is a process that allows anyone to register whatever car they want, even custom built cars such as kit cars (replica AC Cobras for example) as long as it complies with certain regulations.

And if the vehicle is already registered and assigned a VIN, you can still do whatever you want with it as long as it complies with federal regulations. Look at the aftermarket business, it's exactly as Thom mentioned, people make a business transforming vehicles essentially into entirely different vehicles than that by the original manufacturer and all without the need for permission from said manufacturer.

Reply Parent Score: 1