Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 7th Sep 2009 22:38 UTC, submitted by EvilWells
Debian and its clones Developer Frans Pop, author of debtree, posted an article showing the evolution in size of the GNOME desktop environment in recent Debian releases. The picture he paints isn't particularly pretty: the default GNOME install has increased drastically in size over the years.
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RE: Comment by kaiwai
by cjst on Tue 8th Sep 2009 00:39 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
cjst
Member since:
2009-03-30

Actually one should use inotify instead of FAM/Gamin...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by strcpy on Tue 8th Sep 2009 05:01 in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
strcpy Member since:
2009-05-20

And add more Linux dependencies?

The tunnel vision. Monoculture there, monoculture here.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by cjst on Tue 8th Sep 2009 06:56 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
cjst Member since:
2009-03-30

>And add more Linux dependencies?
>
>The tunnel vision. Monoculture there, monoculture here.

Why not? Most people don't give a shit that Kraken Desktop Environment (KDE) runs with [insert your favorite irrelevant kernel here].

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by dragSidious on Tue 8th Sep 2009 18:39 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
dragSidious Member since:
2009-04-17

Really?

How many platforms out there support FAM? Gamin?

Gnome already uses Inotify. It's been like that for a while. Debian sometimes likes to install famd, but it does not have anything to do with Gnome.

It's not Gnome's fault that other Unix systems make shitty desktop platforms and it's not Gnome's problem to fix their deficiencies.

Gamin in FreeBSD, for example, has to open files to monitor them, leading to performance issues and runs into limits related to the maximum amount of open files.

There are similar issues with graphics. It's good to be portable, but you actually need something on the other platforms to support the features. You need something to be portable _to_. If the other platforms lack the basic functionality then your kinda screwed, aren't you?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Tue 8th Sep 2009 11:25 in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually one should use inotify instead of FAM/Gamin...


The solution isn't even that - what is required is a grand unified HAL which abstracts all what the desktop needs via an abstraction layer so that all one needs to do is port the HAL and the desktop will compile on top.

The HAL needs to be operating system agnostic and the GNOME programmers unconcerned about the underlying operating system; if a feature is missing in HAL then it needs to be added; if the underlying operating system is deficient then the maintainers of that operating system need to be notified of such a deficiency and put the responsibility of implementing it on their shoulders.

There was a talk about such an idea but it never got off the ground - but it is needed; evidence alone is how horrible some of the GNOME code is trying to accommodate every operating system in the software itself rather than all calls be made to one consistent underlying API which abstracts all the operating system dependent calls. Oh, and it would not be dependent on GNU extensions; it would only use what is uniform across all platforms - for example, if you need to use grep, don't use the GNU extensions to the standard grep. Many times these libraries can achieve what is required without the GNU extensions - you just need to build several components to reach that end result.

Its not going to happen because it would require 6-12 months of solid of design to ensure that it covers all which needs to be covered as well as designing it in such a way that features can be progressively added without breaking compatibility. I'm willing to work on such a project but like previous attempts to make a contribution - they have fallen on deaf ears. So rather than persevere I roll up my nap sack and mosey on back to Mac OS X with the occasional glancing over my candy coated iMac to see how things are going over there. Once I see nothing has happened - I go back to enjoying what I have.

Edited 2009-09-08 11:41 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by cjst on Tue 8th Sep 2009 12:37 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
cjst Member since:
2009-03-30

To me the solution is less abstraction, less portability cruft, and less operating system agnosticism: a Linux userland which is native to Linux. Fast, lean and mean...

I don't care about running the Kraken Desktop Environment on Windows/MacOS X/whatever. And most people don't either. Most people don't care about multi-booting OSes. They just want one OS that fits all their needs. Currently all OSes just aren't good enough in the desktop department.

I don't use GNOME, KDE, Windows, MacOS X for this reason. I don't mind that they exist, but the world deserves something better than that.

Desktop app development on Linux? No way. I don't want to have to learn 10,000 ways to do the same thing. I want a consistent API.

To sum up things desktop-wise:

Windows: bloated, insecure

GNU/Linux: bloated, a rat's nest

*BSD: less bloated, and less a rat's nest than Linux, but the kernel is not as advanced as Linux, and it's server oriented.

MacOS X: bloated

/me goes back to look at Haiku

Edited 2009-09-08 12:47 UTC

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by Morty on Tue 8th Sep 2009 14:46 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
Morty Member since:
2005-07-06

The solution isn't even that - what is required is a grand unified HAL which abstracts all what the desktop needs via an abstraction layer so that all one needs to do is port the HAL and the desktop will compile on top. The HAL needs to be operating system agnostic ...


The solution does already exist, and have been largely deployed already. It continue to evolve and improve to cover more and more hardware classes. The name is Solid.

Reply Parent Score: 3