Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 7th Sep 2009 22:38 UTC, submitted by EvilWells
Debian and its clones Developer Frans Pop, author of debtree, posted an article showing the evolution in size of the GNOME desktop environment in recent Debian releases. The picture he paints isn't particularly pretty: the default GNOME install has increased drastically in size over the years.
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RE[2]: Get off my lawn!
by BluenoseJake on Tue 8th Sep 2009 15:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Get off my lawn!"
BluenoseJake
Member since:
2005-08-11

It's not about looking nice, it's about things working when plug them in, which HAL helps with. It is about automation. I don't want to have to worry about crap not working unless i write a script, or configure something.

If I plug in a printer, I want the damn thing to be able to print. If I plug in a USB drive, I don't want to have to mount the thing myself, I want it automounted.

I am a professional, and I don't have time to be screwing around with scripts and the command line to get basic functionality.

Maybe your time isn't worth very much, but my time is. I'd rather spend it working.

Edited 2009-09-08 15:06 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Get off my lawn!
by vivainio on Tue 8th Sep 2009 15:18 in reply to "RE[2]: Get off my lawn!"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

It's not about looking nice, it's about things working when plug them in, which HAL helps with. It is about automation. I don't want to have to worry about crap not working unless i write a script, or configure something.

Right. I find it weird that people here are lumping essentials like udev to "unnecessary bloat".

Also, people forget that "fat" depedencies reduce other kind of bloat, the kind caused by duplication of functionality (which leads to buggy code). The disk space bloat is harmless, in that none of the superfluous applications are running unless you launch them (unlike the bloat caused by, say, Akonadi launching mysql server on boot).

I believe what we have here is making lots of noise of a non-problem. It's Linux, you can strip it down as much as you want.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Get off my lawn!
by marcp on Tue 8th Sep 2009 20:37 in reply to "RE[2]: Get off my lawn!"
marcp Member since:
2007-11-23

Unfortunately, you'd rather spend your time on FIXING the problems cause by an automation, which is far more complicated, than the hand-driven OS. People like you used to act like they don't care what's under mask. IF so, then just use Mac and don't say that "everything needs to be auto". You can also use Ubuntu and waste your time on fixing auto crap.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Get off my lawn!
by BluenoseJake on Tue 8th Sep 2009 20:56 in reply to "RE[3]: Get off my lawn!"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Unfortunately, you'd rather spend your time on FIXING the problems cause by an automation, which is far more complicated, than the hand-driven OS. People like you used to act like they don't care what's under mask. IF so, then just use Mac and don't say that "everything needs to be auto". You can also use Ubuntu and waste your time on fixing auto crap.


Don't presume to tell me what I like doing, or what OS I use, or what I should use. I prefer to make my own decisions, thank you very much. You don't know me, so just sit down.

I use Debian, because I like control. I do care what is under the mask, but I don't care to messing with the OS when I have work to do.

I use Debian because it is the perfect balance. I don't spend my time fixing anything. I plug in a monitor, it autodetects the display, I don't have time to be editing modlines and xorg.conf. I am fully capable of building my own xorg.conf, but choose not too, because my time is too important

I plug in a USB drive, it detects the drive and automounts it. I am fully capable of mounting drives, but choose not too, because my time is too important

I plug in a printer, it's autodetected and configured. I am capable of setting up a printer, but choose not too, because my time is too important

I don't know where you get this assertion that you have to spend time fixing things due to automation. I don't think I ever have, at least since I switched to Debian. When I use Windows, it's the same thing. I don't spend time fixing issues, I spend time working. I have code to write and servers to run, and it's 2009, not 1998.

This is not a server I'm talking about, it's (say it with me now) A DESKTOP.

When I want lean and simple I use FreeBSD. If it's a server, there is no GUI, regardless whether it's BSD or Debian, I want maximum control. If it's a desktop, I want to get to work, and not have to hobble together with scripts and config files to accomplish what lowly Windows can do since Windows 98.

Edited 2009-09-08 20:57 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Get off my lawn!
by Remiks on Tue 8th Sep 2009 21:18 in reply to "RE[3]: Get off my lawn!"
Remiks Member since:
2009-08-25

Ok... suddenly this discussion went from GNOME to something broader... But just for the sake of the argument:
As I stated before, I'm not a power user, nor a noob... But I'm all in favor of automation. I've been using GNU/Linux for almost 4 years (with an ocassional jump to windows (something I'm ashamed of)), starting with Slackware (great learning experience) and then running Mandriva, Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu... What's the point of this ridiculous resumé? Well: slackware is really a great distro, similar to any BSD... but in order to get things working, you needed to get your hands dirty... I was learning a lot, so I don't complain, but now, all I want is my OS working, and the tweaking to be an option for me... I said in a previous reply, I use Linux Mint (derived from Ubuntu and all its auto-crap) and, believe me, I have not found any trouble at all with all its automation, even considering that I use the command line for a lot of things regarding configuration...
Not everything needs to be auto... But that's a choice the end-user has to be able to make... For some users, the really experienced ones, doing things manually is the way to go, for others, automation is the right thing. That is the greatest thing about GNU/Linux, or Free Software/Open Source in general: you can choose what better suits you, not being forced to accept things just because someone consider it is better for you.

Edited 2009-09-08 21:33 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Get off my lawn!
by marafaka on Wed 9th Sep 2009 06:29 in reply to "RE[2]: Get off my lawn!"
marafaka Member since:
2006-01-03

"I am a professional, and I don't have time to be screwing around with scripts and the command line to get basic functionality."

How do you know what and if it needs to be scripted unles you're doing it? And what kind of profesional wants to wait for his flashy windows to their stuf and then drag them around with a mousey and click on candy-like buttons? Or you are a hard core professional and have it all black?

The idea of a GUI is laughable. It's not a natural way to communicate with the machine but a greased copy of an ancient trick taken out of context. I do not use GUIs or try to avoid them for the reasons you mentioned and others.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Get off my lawn!
by BluenoseJake on Fri 11th Sep 2009 13:55 in reply to "RE[3]: Get off my lawn!"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

"I am a professional, and I don't have time to be screwing around with scripts and the command line to get basic functionality."

How do you know what and if it needs to be scripted unles you're doing it? And what kind of profesional wants to wait for his flashy windows to their stuf and then drag them around with a mousey and click on candy-like buttons? Or you are a hard core professional and have it all black?

The idea of a GUI is laughable. It's not a natural way to communicate with the machine but a greased copy of an ancient trick taken out of context. I do not use GUIs or try to avoid them for the reasons you mentioned and others.


Who was talking about eyecandy. I'm talking about the sort of automation like udev and hal. I'm talking about cups compared to LPD. I'm talking about accessing smb and nfs shares from nautilus and konqeror.

GUIs are a fact of life. get over it.

I don't want eyecandy, I want functionality. If you can't separate the two in your mind, then that's your loss.

Reply Parent Score: 2