Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 25th Oct 2009 12:51 UTC
Editorial A couple of years ago, a professor at my university had a very interesting thought exchange with the class I was in. We were a small group, and I knew most of them, they were my friends. Anyway, we had a talk about language purism - not an unimportant subject if you study English in The Netherlands.
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RE[5]: Comment by wirespot
by looncraz on Wed 28th Oct 2009 16:11 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by wirespot"
looncraz
Member since:
2005-07-24

I found the Xeons on eBay :-)

I should have watched the item, maybe I'll look for them later.

I did the upgrade because I couldn't find an affordable matching pair of CPUs, I went with the best value for the build rather than base-line comparison.

I did this because that is what a person would do when building a system - look for the best bang for the buck. Apple's $1400 upgrade cost is truly mind-boggling.

Likewise, the RAM was cheap because I used 2x4GB sticks, rather than Apple's bulk-bought 4x2GB. 4GB modules were the value king, 2 GB would cost more per GB.

The video was a no-brainer. What a steal! Especially considering Apple charges $200 for it after removing the base card.

Sure, the base-line system from Apple would have cost considerably less, but to build it on your own is not the wisest way to go. In the real world, you look for the best bang per buck, so I did exactly that, upgrading the Mac only if I needed to do so to match the best general-market values.

Of course, if one has the smarts to go this far, one would be expected to be capable of providing one's own support. All the hardware I selected is under factory warranty as well.

I think a comparable chassis is the most difficult part of the game. Apple has been making incredibly lovely machines for years.

Of course, if you really want a good deal, you would just buy a slightly used MacPro for half of the general market expense.

That is just crazy.

--The loon

EDIT: dyslexia rules!

Edited 2009-10-28 16:17 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by wirespot
by Abstract on Wed 28th Oct 2009 22:06 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by wirespot"
Abstract Member since:
2009-10-24

@looncraz

No doubt Apple hardware is more expensive then a low end PC or Build It Yourself.
Most Mac users know not to buy the hard drive, cpu and ram upgrades when you are configuring a Mac at the Apple Store website.
Other World Computing, Pricewatch.com among other sites all offer the same upgrades for a lot less.

Just like buying a car, you don't upgrade the radio/stereo or tires, etc.. from the dealer, you get after market parts or upgrades for either cheaper or better performance/quality. Nothing wrong with that.
So your price comparison is skewed, but I repeat again, Apple hardware is usually more expensive then other low end or build it yourself.

And you also took one model / offering of Apple's hardware. the iMac is a better value then a lot of build it yourself options, mac mini might be slight more then the equiv PC shuttle, but laptops as a complete package (don't forget display and the battery, plus the case) is very competitive when it comes to high end laptops.
Plus by your own omission you went out and found the parts piece by piece from different sources, so if you can do that why can't a person purchasing a Mac also go out and get upgrade parts in the same manner. But again it is the total package you are buying when you purchase an Apple product.

to quote myself:

I can buy the same paint that any other artist does, but what i create with it might not have the value or worth that a famous artist’s work does. Also I may not feel as though a painting by an artist is worth millions of dollars, but if someone else does, and is willing to pay it, then so be it.


This is what Apple has done.

Simple fact is Apple has been doing well with their current business model, if it works while change it radically? Should Apple take the approach of Dell? large volume, low margins? Ya, thats very successful.

Oh they should take the approach of Microsoft and license their OS to other hardware vendors to sell systems with Mac OSX pre-installed?

Big difference is Microsoft has a strangle hold on the corporate/enterprise market which wether you want to accept it or not is where Microsoft makes the bulk of their money from when it comes to OS sales, cause i think it was something like only 2/3rds of home users (non-corporate) actually purchase the OS and the majority of those are OEM, as in the OS came with the computer.

Microsoft has 85-90% of the market share, so they make up for their loss in in volume, Apple has 10% so if 1/3rd of their users pirated Mac OSX its a bigger hit to Apple then Microsoft takes ratio wise.

Besides do you enjoy dealing with the nonsense of Activation Keys, calling Microsoft to re-Authenticate, etc..

How do we put a price tag on our time & frustration, or the value of being stress free?

Edited 2009-10-28 22:11 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Comment by wirespot
by looncraz on Thu 29th Oct 2009 01:21 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by wirespot"
looncraz Member since:
2005-07-24

Just like buying a car, you don't upgrade the radio/stereo or tires, etc.. from the dealer, you get after market parts or upgrades for either cheaper or better performance/quality. Nothing wrong with that.


No, nothing wrong with that. But you have already wasted about $1,500 going that route. Maybe you can recoup some of your losses, but not to the degree required.

But that is beside the point I was making: Mac's are far more expensive for what you get than they should be. Apple is not alone here, mind you.

I was arguing to the point of the MacPro being of any kind of real monetary value based on specifications, and quality, alone.

The fact that I could spend $3000 to build a $5000 MacPro also means I get a MUCH better value for the price of a basic MacPro ( $3299, IIRC ).

2.66GHz vs 2.1GHz, 8GB RAM vs 6GB, 1TB Hard Drive vs 640GB, 1GB ATI Video instead of... junk. For considerably less money than the basic MacPro.

So the bargain is the home-brew.

I also spoke, momentarily, to the point of devaluation. Just check out the offerings on eBay. Albeit, 6-month devaluation is not a common concern, but neither configuration will fare well here - but the Apple loses much more quickly.

But let us move on...


And you also took one model / offering of Apple's hardware. the iMac is a better value then a lot of build it yourself options, ...



I was only compelled to so closely examine one particular model. Look at the post that initiated my comment, we are talking MacPro.

I don't do laptops. I despise them.

That said, I own a few and even have one I'm about to install into my car. None are new. My fastest is a 3GHz Celeron with 512MB RAM. That is for live OBDII monitoring.


Plus by your own omission you went out and found the parts piece by piece from different sources, so if you can do that why can't a person purchasing a Mac also go out and get upgrade parts in the same manner. But again it is the total package you are buying when you purchase an Apple product.


I was comparing the total package.

I build computers for a living. That is what I do. I have never had the need to build a system of this scale, but my take would be only about $200. And I go to my clients' homes/businesses and setup the machine, and walk them through anything they need to know and connect any peripherals they have.

They can call me for my lifetime for answers to their questions, and I do house calls within, at most, a few days if they need extra help.

The only catch is that I am limited in service area.



Simple fact is Apple has been doing well with their current business model, if it works while change it radically? Should Apple take the approach of Dell? large volume, low margins? Ya, thats very successful.



Making a profit does not mean a business model works well. Often profit is made in the short term at the expense of the future. Apple is heading that way.

Particularly in public relations with technical professionals. You get the techs against you, you will soon fall. I have prevented a dozen or so people from buying Macs based on nothing but price and software compatibility.

Imagine a few million of me ( which there are ). With Apple's current strategy and attitude this effect will become increasingly prevalent.


Oh they should take the approach of Microsoft and license their OS to other hardware vendors to sell systems with Mac OSX pre-installed?


No, Apple should simply obey the laws of the retail marketplace.

But this gives them an opportunity. Windows on retail shelves has a very high price point. The top of the line MacOS X will be the non-upgrade version which has no limitations save for one: product support is included with Apple hardware, not software.

Price-match Windows on the shelves.

Create a "low-price" "upgrade" version which has only one requirement: installation on an Apple-branded computer.

This is a very different situation in the law, and would only serve to bolster revenues and profits of MacOS X sells. A little gravy, so to speak.

If Psystar were to hack the upgrade version, I - along with most- would be very much against them, they would have no protection and would see no mercy.


Big difference is Microsoft has a strangle hold on the corporate/enterprise market which wether you want to accept it or not is where Microsoft makes the bulk of their money from when it comes to OS sales


Apple has no need to compete intra-market in the OS category. They should NOT create OEM licenses. That would be counter-productive all-around.

They should do as I said. Nothing more. Except dropping the Psystar case in exchange for the same from Psystar.

--The loon

Reply Parent Score: 2