Windows 7 has been out and about for little over a week now, and as it turns out, Microsoft's new baby is doing relatively well. That is, according to the figures by NetApplications: Windows 7 already reached the 3% mark this weekend, and is already closing in on the 4% mark.
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Member since:2005-07-06
Member since:2005-07-12
Fully expected - truth hurts, especially when you pull their head out of the sand, smack the silly rose colored glasses off their face with a wet trout, giving them a harsh dose of reality.
Besides, when for every successful open source developer like Linus you have a hundred thousand college and high school virgins still having life paid for by mommy and daddy so they can worship at the Church of Stallman...
Edited 2009-11-03 06:16 UTC
Member since:2007-11-04
What's with the namecalling, doesn't help your argument. Look at lemur2, yes some of his arguments are farfetched but he's not calling any names.
I also don't believe your whole story. First you already have such a strong opinion on that free software sucks, I don't even believe you would want to install Ubuntu.
Then there's some of the weird things which just don't add up.
I might believe you to the livecd locking up part. I don't believe that your installation from the textinstaller took 3 hours! That number is simply made up. I've yet to see any Ubuntu installation take longer than 20 min.
Then the bit about eth0 not configuring right, doesn't make sense to me either, what wasn't working and how did you have to fix it from the cli. Now I've seen quite a few problems with wireless, but wired connections on linux being a problem?? Couldn't you come up with a better story?
The bit about updates for 2 hours? Yeah right, I've just installed 9.1 with lots of extra packages and there were hardly any updates, what internet connection are you on 9600Baud modem?
The bit about dicking with xorg.conf does not sound believable either, first why would you invest that much time into configuring a system which you clearly hate (You made that clear at the beginning). Also AFAIK everything is configured with xrandr now so no xorg.conf.
I could go on. But really make up a convincing story if you really feel you need to post an anti FOSS rant to boost your ego. For this one I can just say FAIL!
Member since:2005-07-12
Well lucky for you then. I suspect the root cause is that I've got the BIOS in SATA mode and the linux kernel used on the install CD's hates the nForce 680i chipset... it's the only reason I can figure disk access CRAWLS on this machine during install/liveCD.
So you've never had to manually add "dmfe" to /etc/modules? Eth0 present but refuses to see the lan until you do that? Common affliction on nForce, Davicom and 3Com networking cards. USUALLY old-school it wasn't a problem until after upgrading the kernel - disturbing to have it crop up on a fresh install of the baseline.
Actually, I'm on 22mbps downstream, but thanks to the servers refusing connection, and when they do connect being throttled down to dialup speeds for my area - yes, it can take that long. Good for you being right on top of their servers, I have no such luck - rarely ever have.
1) dicking with xorg.conf unbelievable? BWAHAHAHA!!! FUNNY GUY.
2) I'm a software and web developer working cross platform - so I actually install OS I dislike for testing because while I dislike it, I'm not going to be that asshat who tests in Windows/IE and **** everyone else.
Which doesn't see more than one display on my setup with the open source drivers, and which isn't compatible with the nVidia restricted drivers... Which means you have to go into xorg.conf and manually add the metamodes for each screens resolution. In THEORY you could run their configuration utility, but that does more harm than help ESPECIALLY on a multi-display setup.
I could go on, but clearly you don't know enough about Linux to be attempting to berate my experiences.
Member since:2006-08-02
Startup notifications (mouse busy, "Starting ..." on task switcher) still don't work in too many apps, at least on Ubuntu 9.10 (eg. Open Office). I've been working on changing that. You'll notice they work in Wine: I sent in the patch for that early this year. Another one I made for Java apps is in the openjdk bug tracker. I guess there's more, do you know any other apps that need it?
What do you mean by "cuts in and out"?
Yes, multiple displays are still pretty shocking in my experience (and I only run 2).
I've noticed HD video is ridiculously slow in VLC. How does Windows decode it faster?
Member since:2006-01-02
Member since:2005-07-12
Old school windows has an 'overlay buffer' to which writes can be handled directly on the video card - you map a section of video memory to your desired render dimensions and then output directly to it to show the content. Removes the need for an extra blt operation.
New, most codecs can render to directX. Windows codecs are also written to take advantage of MPEG2 hardware and even MPEG4 hardware acceleration if present.
Linux does not. Hell, netbooks running XP could handle HD video if they had something marginally better than a GMA950 and some hardware MPEG assist.
Hell, imagine a netbook with a ATI HD video - it's CALLED a HD for a reason, the inclusion of HD video decompression assistance... Something linux video software doesn't even recognize/use.
Which is also why VLC SUCKS on windows because even there it's doing everything 'the hard way' on the CPU - while even piddly little 'Media Player Classic' uses the OS specific codecs and even allows you to select your render targets. "old renderer" (aka WinG), Overlay Mixer, VMR7, VMR9, Haali, EVR... Pick whichever works best and provides the features you need.
While VLC can't even manage vsync.
Member since:2006-01-04
I also installed the final Ubuntu and Kubuntu on a few machines and there are no 2 hours of updates. Just a new version of firefox has been released as of now. So unless your net is about 0.4kb/s you are lying.
I only read upto that point ... it is called 9.10, not 9.1. (2009 October, not January)
Member since:2008-06-12
Excuse me, but what the f--k is your point? If you're calling people out on their claims that the Linux desktop is as user friendly as the Microsoft one, uh-- DUH. Windows is designed for everyone and their grandmother. Linux is not.
Yes, companies like Canonical are making claims to the contrary, AND in fact they ARE making progress in backing up those claims.
BUT that's not why WE (me, and I suspect most of the Linux users on this website) are using Linux.
See, we believe in this thing called Freedom. We want to be able to control our machines, since after all-- they're ours, right?
Indeed, because of a long story involving a few large companies, this freedom neither ubiquitous nor absolute. As your post illustrates, the first obstruction to freedom is hardware. In your case, it seems like its bad drivers. Another obstruction is interoperability with non-free software. Unfortunately this is the case today. Many people are working hard to change this and there has certainly been SUBSTANTIAL progress. Others are doing their part by simply not giving money to the people that are standing in our way.
But to someone thats really interested in being free, that won't be too much of an issue. See, if you actually care about your freedom, you'd spend FIVE minutes before you buy your next computer and make sure it's not going to be an obstruction to your freedom. Yes, sometimes being free requires a little bit of research. Cry about it. On the other hand, most people can get away without doing any research (especially if they don't need cutting edge hardware).
So far I haven't said what freedom actually gets you. Many people, including Linux users, including myself for the first couple years that I used the platform, will barely ever really take direct advantage of the freedom available to them. Instead, they will see the indirect benefits of freedom. For example, they will find that bugs in their software are fixed more quickly. They will find that older hardware is much more capable. They will find that pieces of software written by entirely different groups of people can talk to each other, something we call the UNIX philosophy.
Still haven't told you what you can do DIRECTLY with your newfound freedom, huh? Warning: using your freedom might actually require a little work, maybe even some *gasp* imagination. Here's a trivial example. A week or so ago I realized it would be nice if the status (paused/stopped/playing, song info) of my music player (quodlibet) to be displayed in the statusbar of my window manager (awesome). I added 3 lines to my window manager's configuration file to get a text widget on the status bar, and wrote a 10 line python plugin for the music player to update that with the relevant info on the relevant events.
People might react to this in different ways. Some will undoubtedly think "see this is why Linux isn't ready for the desktop. nobody should have to use a text editor to do anything." Others will scoff at the fact that this functionality wasn't built in. (Those people will probably prefer Ubuntu, Gnome, Rhythmbox, etc. instead of Debian, Awesome, Quodlibet) Suit yourself. I am very satisfied that my solution uses (wild guess) about 1K additional memory and that I can change it in a million different ways (text colors, formatting, album art, etc.) with just a couple lines of code.
And this is just an example of some trivial modification. There are no limits (okay, there are some. see above.) to what you can accomplish with free software, even for desktop-oriented stuff. And in the server arena... well let's not even talk about that.
In conclusion, in MY opinion, Linux isn't for everyone. The people who will benefit from it most TODAY are those who use their computers and feel like their operating system is getting in the way and preventing them from getting what they want done. However, this is changing. Linux IS becoming friendlier, and more and more people are starting to see much more subtle advantages or even much simpler ones (price). Unfortunately, there are some significant barriers that we need to overcome that will require momentum from the community (I think we have this) and also the assistance of various corporations (this is also getting there, albeit more slowly).
Edited 2009-11-03 08:07 UTC
Member since:2006-01-06
That's about where I stopped reading. No, what you really want is the illusion of control. You don't know what your kernel does. You don't know what your drivers do. You take the word of other people that you're free. And so do I, because I paid them to provide me with what I want, and it works damned well. Freedom, to me, is not having to be chained to my desk dealing with problems all the time -- as I have done many times in the past dicking around with Linux. If that's your idea of freedom, enjoy it.
Member since:2006-01-02
Bugs fixed more quickly? Really? That would explain why bugs languish for years (like the infamous GTK+ button highlighting bug) and why Bugzillas for big projects are filled with thousands upon thousands of bug requests, many of which haven't even been responded to, much less fixed. And that also explains the infamous WONTFIX closures when the devs just don't care about the bug and nobody is paying them to make it work. In the real software world, if customers complain about bugs, they get fixed or addressed. You can still have relationships with the developers, and since they are paid to get things done, things get done.
As for your examples of the benefits of "freedom", they aren't examples of the benefits of FOSS at all! All you did is edit config files or make scripts. Newsflash: you can do that on Windows and OS X too. Except on those systems, you can do considerably fancier things because the system API is much more capable.
And as another poster pointed out, do you actually look at the source code for the kernel? Have you verified that Firefox isn't stealing your data? Did you look through its source code? Are you actually modifying the source code in any significant way to benefit yourself (changing config files doesn't count)? If not, then the "freedom" is of no benefit to you. It certainly isn't of any benefit to most desktop users out there. My sister uses Ubuntu and I can tell you that she isn't hacking on the kernel or fixing bugs in KDE. It might as well be closed-source for how she uses it, which is to say, using it and not spending hours trying to get it to work, which is often the case.
Member since:2007-01-22
Member since:2006-02-15
I just can't bring myself to believe everything you've written. You've said so many times before how Free Software etc suck and again in your rant you're throwing insults here and there like someone had pissed in your cereals.
Anyways, it's unfortunate it didn't work for you. But then again, you wouldn't have used it anyway so.. I use Linux myself and I haven't had to drop down to command-line even once, during installation or after it. And all my hardware works fine, too, including wireless, compositing, multi-channel audio etc. Though, I don't have all the latest and greatest hardware, that could explain it.
But again, Linux just doesn't work for everyone, just the same as Windows doesn't or OSX doesn't. I could get all my stuff done with Windows too if I wanted, I just personally prefer Linux because it's much more customizable, it's easier to install software and keep it all updated, and I just feel more at home there.
Member since:2006-05-12
It's a chicken and egg problem. Linux needs vendor driver support, but vendors won't write drivers or provide docs for an OS with minimal market share.
Yes, if you need graphics or audio editing tools from large brand vendors then you're kinda stuck on Windows. However, as a sys admin / sometimes programmer I find that Windows is very inflexible. It's the MS way or the highway.
By the way, it's pretty "easy" to do multi-monitors with nVidia. I've got 3 setup without issue. The "secret" is that you don't use Twinview or Xinerama and set them up all as individual desktops.
Member since:2005-08-18
Hey, whatever works for you. I can't stand using Windows (admitedly I havent used 7 yet) for 5 minutes before the inherent suckiness and generally stupid design decisions threatens to increase my bloodpressure to dangerous levels.
Then again, I dont need to use Cakewalk Sonar, 3ds max or psp for my work
Also, I havent had a single one of the problems you list. Bluetooth fine, audio fine, video fine etc etc. I guess I"m either really lucky or just know what I'm doing.
Edited 2009-11-03 10:14 UTC
Member since:2005-11-10
YES! Outstanding image optimiser. The web would literally half in size if people were using this instead of Photoshop’s save-to-web. Photoshop outputs some of the most bloated PNGs and JPEGs I have _ever_ seen.
I once run a gallery of 25 *thumbnails* for a friends site, though an optimiser and saved over *1 Meg*.
Member since:2006-07-25
The only thing i would say is that perhaps some of the problems you had encountered was because your machine was overclocked.
I have the same processor and memory in a Dell and ive not had a problem with either linux 9.04/9.10 and windows 7.
Im also suprised you've had problems with your laptop, as i have installed on a dell X1, Compaq Celeron 733MHZ and RM P3 800MHZ.
Im not saying you should move to a different platform as i don't believe in doing that, it's the same with religion, i don't care what others believe in aslong as they don't preach to me.
Personally im more of a Mac fan, with Windows used for work and older games and linux on my laptops and some servers.
Member since:2005-09-21
I used Linux mainly for many years, and that sums up my experience with it, I still use gentoo for certain things, but the level of messing around even with the "easy" distros are still far beyond most any computer user I know. And this is with using pretty standard hardware. Almost every graphical boot dvd/cd install of linux locks on every machine ive owned, with nvidia and ATI gfx, its inexcusable, if I didnt like tinkering so much it would be a total loss in my mind... but OS experimentation is my thing so to speak 
Member since:2005-07-02
Here's my experience:
- Take Netbook out of box
- Plug it in
- Turn it on
- Everything works
I did what a customer would usually do, I bought a computer with the OS pre-installed. In this case, it was Ubuntu.
Later on I upgraded it to 9.04, then 9.10, and everything. Just. Worked.
I must agree with others, here. I don't think you are objective enough for us to trust the results of your experiment. Even then, the only thing it would prove is that those particular hardware combos work better with Win7 than Ubuntu.
Member since:2006-01-06
- Take Netbook out of box
- Plug it in
- Turn it on
- Everything works
- Connect to corporate MS Exchange server for mail & calendar. FAIL.
- Run a decent post-1995 game. FAIL.
- Sync iPod/iPhone with iTunes. FAIL.
- Run Quicken. FAIL.
Oh, yeah ... everything "works"... unless you try to do something that's easily accomplished on a Mac or Windows.
Member since:
2005-07-12
Leave it to the free****ots to come pouring out of the woodwork in defense of their tinker-toy desktop environments. No offense, but I still maintain that *nix is for servers, windows is for desktops, and varying from that formula invariably is made of complete and miserable /FAIL/
About a week ago on a forums I posted my experience with Ubuntu 9.1 and compared it to a windows 7 installation on the same machines (one desktop, one laptop) - lemme share that here:
System 1 - my primary workstation
Q6600 CPU overclocked to 2.7ghz (1200FSB, 3:2 timings), undervolted to 1.1825
4 gigs RAM
1TB WD Caviar Black (OS)
1.5tb Seagate (media)
Pair of Samsung F1 750 gig mirrored (work)
Linksys (atheros chipset) wireless adapter
Ge260 GTX driving left 2 displays (24" 1920x1200)
Ge8800 GTS driving right 2 displays (17" 1024x1280 portrait)
Audigy 2 ZS Platinum
System 2 - My laptop HP NC8000
1.8ghz Celeron M
2 gigs RAM
120 gig WD Scorpio Blue
Radeon 9600 mobility (15.4" at 1400x1050)
Ubuntu 9.10 on workstation
LiveCD boots, but installer 'locks up'. CD image is FINE, so burn out an 'alternate' text based installer CD and some three hours later we actually get to the OS. Wireless not recognized without restricted drivers, doesn't let you install restricted drivers without connecting to run the update. So drag it in from my garage/office and physical wire it, and ETH0 doesn't configure right so I have to manually dick with it from the command line - FINALLY get online, spend two hours on updates before I can get wireless working...
It only sees one display and won't set anything but 800x600 even WITH the nVidia restricted drivers and all displays connected via DVI. After four hours of dicking with xorg.conf I FINALLY get all four displays on, in order and native resolution. There's zero support for rotated displays the same time as non-rotated with the font aliasing so you are stuck with ugly fonts - NOT that freetype is a prize in that department to begin with..
Twinview is useless for more than two displays so have to run Xinerama, which means I can kiss off the composite extension and welcome to the world of the slowest OS video on the planet. Scrolling any long page in FF or Opera has horrible tearing, often mis-renders, and at times it appears you can see the page being updated one pixel at a time. Of course as with every linux install I've ever used the visual cues for if a program is launching are nonexistant, so I click to open FF, nothing happens... wait 30 seconds, click to open FF, nothing happens... two minutes later five copies pop open at once. QUALITY.
Sound card support only allows for 2 channel output no matter wild claims by others of it working. Other devices like the webcam are also 'recognized' and 'supported' - but not FULLY supported (320x240 max on a 4 megapixel camera for example). Mouse (logitech trackman marble+) cuts in and out and doesn't support the scroll wheel via PS/2 (since I'm on a KVM...) and only really works right via USB.
Fullscreen OpenGL applications only open on the left-most display since x.org has no concept of a 'primary display' - have fun dicking with config files to get them to open 'pushed over'. Running in a window the only openGL I can run is the piss poor slow MESA library, so pretty much anything graphics related (like blender) is not even really an option.
Video playback even with VLC is a joke since VLC does all CPU decoding - welcome to horrible tearing, sync problems and other issues that take HD playback and turn it into choppy crap worse than watching Hulu fullscreen under XP.
Ubuntu 9.10 on Laptop
Live CD comes up with the classic corrupted video that you have to force to 16 bit rendering during boot... at least in this case though the installer on the live CD functions as expected. Open source drivers also seem to need to be forced to 16 bit to even work right, so closed drivers are the only solution though again, I have to drag it over to a landline to run at least one series of updates before it will let me put restricted drivers in.
Audio recognized but neither the microphone or headphone jack work. It's fun when you plug in the headphones and they neither come on nor kill the internal speaker. This can be fixed by dicking with the alsa-base file and forcing the realtek driver manually - so long as you don't mind ALL playback being at half the volume it is in windows, making the internal speakers about as useless as they are on a netbook.
Plugging in USB devices causes a kernel panic, if you boot with them installed it's fine, but don't plan on plugging any in once it's up and running. No sign of bluetooth or IR support or any means of configuring them, and attempts to add software to control them have so far been for nought.
Wireless appears to work unless you happen to have the laptop go to sleep, in which case the instructions to reset it from the command line do jack ****, so you pretty much have to reboot.
... and video playback? VLC can barely manage fullscreen DVD and completely chokes on HD content in VLC at any size render target.
Again, typical linux 'supported but not fully' nonsense.
Windows 7 x64 on Desktop
Install the OS, boots up 27 minutes later with all four displays enabled and in their native resolutions!?! (all I had to do was adjust their order and tell it two of them are rotated) Audigy recognized, playing sounds, fully configurable for speaker layout. Wireless also recognized and logs right on to my WPA setup. Windows Update will grab the latest driver versions, though it's nice to install the nvidia stuff manually so you get the support applications. (as well as the 'audigy support pack' by danielK).
Windows 7 x32 on Laptop
Install the OS, boots up 40 minutes later in the native resolution. Audio working, headphone jack working, IR working, Bluetooth working after windows update, no wierd problems with USB...
... and in Windows I actually have font rendering meant for SCREEN with kerning that doesn't look like it was done by a sweetly retarded crack addict. (and yes, I know how to enable better hinting with the XML file, helps the glyphs but NOT the spacing between them!) I have hardware overlay and some hardware decode support so the lappy can even manage HD playback OVER THE WIRELESS... I have direct access to USEFUL applications instead of half-assed tinkertoys like OpenOffice and the GiMP that are akin to a trip in the wayback machine to Windows 3.1 level functionality.
"Free" software - all I can say is "Rah rah, fight the power and the evil corporations" - when, as Carlos Mencia described most of your 'corporations are evil' whackjobs "every weekend you get together and rent movies from BLOCKBUSTER and order Pizza from Dominoes"
I do seriously wonder what the **** is in the Linux Kool Aid so far as using it (or freebsd, or opensolaris) as a desktop is concerned. Servers where everything is either command line or via HTTP panels, freaking brilliant OS. Hang an X11 implementation around it's neck like a dead albatross and call it a desktop OS, and the result is not quite so brilliant.
Windows 7 on the other hand - freaking brilliant - mostly because I don't have a laundry list of complaints... and I have access to COMMERCIAL applications who's quality blows most of that free nonsense out of the water. Cakewalk Sonar (try running that under Wine!), 3ds Max, Hell, I can even run the decade old Paint Shop Pro 7 with it's image optimizer I have yet to see the equal of - without jumping through any goofy hoops.
If I wanted to spend time dicking around on the command line for the simplest of tasks, I'd still be running Xenix on my Trash-80 model 16.