Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Dec 2009 15:16 UTC, submitted by chully
Gnome Over the weekend, there has been a bit of a ruffling of the feathers over in the GNOME camp. It started with complaints received about the content on Planet GNOME, and ended with people proposing and organising a vote to split GNOME from the GNU Project.
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wargum
Member since:
2006-12-15


Windows:
* Almost no flexibility in configuration options.

If you are referring to GUI configuration, yes. But that sure has it advantages: Everybody who has used Windows since version 95 can use the next person's Windows as well. No confusion, just start working.

* Ani-malware tools are a requirement.

I disagree. The noobs may need it, companies may need it. Advanced users and power users don't necessarily need it, brain.exe should be sufficent.

* Half my hardware needs drivers that have to be downloaded first.

Get past the XP days, please. Today, in most cases Windows 7 just detects everything and loads the drivers needed via Windows Update.

* No decent window management.

IMHO that is true for pre W7, but Microsoft has done significant improvements in that area for 7 and I like it a lot. My girlfriend is now fully on Windows 7 and trust me, the new taskbar works far better. And one feature that KDE now copies from W7 is very cool: Drag window to a side and it spans to half of the screen width. She uses that quite often, it's very very handy and easy to understand.

* No consistency among applications (menu bar below toolbar here, menu bar above toolbar there, ribbon somewhere else)


Well, Linux is only consistent among apps if you use a small set of poster child apps. My favorite jukebox on Linux is Songbird, it looks totally different to anything else.

KDE/Linux:
* Hardware works out of the box.


Only as long as it decides not to work ;-)
That sure is an argument easily destroyed. If the Kernel version of yours doesn't support a particular component, you are pretty much screwed. And look at different Linux forums, people do have problems and things may break when switching to a newer version of your distribution.

* Major leaps in functionality every six months.


A lot of it is just catch up. You may give some examples.

I've also used Mac OS X for many years. Even Mac OS X 10.3 is still better than recent Windows versions.


Panther was my reason to switch to the Mac. But again, W7 has made huge improvements in usuability, the old thinking doesn't apply here.

Reply Parent Score: 3

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

If you are referring to GUI configuration, yes. But that sure has it advantages: Everybody who has used Windows since version 95 can use the next person's Windows as well. No confusion, just start working.


Why would anyone be confused over setting their own preferences? In what context should one "just start working" in another person's account?

I disagree. The noobs may need it, companies may need it. Advanced users and power users don't necessarily need it, brain.exe should be sufficent.


The vast majority of computer users aren't advanced users or power users. Power users are a bit of a worry, because they often think they know more than they really do, especially about a closed system with secret internals. Therefore, a system which doesn't require a computer-savvy brain.so to remain resistant to compromises is intrinsically better.

Get past the XP days, please. Today, in most cases Windows 7 just detects everything and loads the drivers needed via Windows Update.


Windows update won't have a driver for anything that Microsoft hasn't got source code for, nor has purchased the driver code back from the OEM. This category will include almost every piece of gear that was out of production before Windows 7 release date.

IMHO that is true for pre W7, but Microsoft has done significant improvements in that area for 7 and I like it a lot. My girlfriend is now fully on Windows 7 and trust me, the new taskbar works far better. And one feature that KDE now copies from W7 is very cool: Drag window to a side and it spans to half of the screen width. She uses that quite often, it's very very handy and easy to understand.


Yet for all its expense, Windows 7 still lacks basic things such as multiple desktops.

Well, Linux is only consistent among apps if you use a small set of poster child apps. My favorite jukebox on Linux is Songbird, it looks totally different to anything else.


If running your particular odball favourite application is important to you, Linux lets you do that. If running a set of applications with a consistent GUI is important to you, Linux lets you do that also (in this case, if your desktop is KDE, then use Juk or Amarok as your jukebox, not Songbird). That type of flexibility is not available in Windows world, some of your applications are going to have to be oddball.

That sure is an argument easily destroyed. If the Kernel version of yours doesn't support a particular component, you are pretty much screwed.


No, the Linux kernel has loadable modules.

And look at different Linux forums, people do have problems and things may break when switching to a newer version of your distribution.


Far less so than the problems people have when switching to the latest version of Windows, and finding that the drivers on the CDROMs that came with their hardware are all XP drivers, and they don't work with Windows 7.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Windows update won't have a driver for anything that Microsoft hasn't got source code for, nor has purchased the driver code back from the OEM. This category will include almost every piece of gear that was out of production before Windows 7 release date.


What nonsense is this? Even my old, pre-Vista machines - heck machines bought when XP was only a few months old - have all their drivers pulled from Windows Update. Me thinks you've simply never tried Windows 7.

The driver-hunting argument is no longer a valid one when comparing Linux to Windows.

Yet for all its expense, Windows 7 still lacks basic things such as multiple desktops.


So basic, that I've never had anyone ask for them other than people that read OSNews - who are fully capable of downloading one of the gaziliontrillion applications for Windows tat implement this functionality. Please, Linux has a lot to offer - you can most certainly do better than this.

That type of flexibility is not available in Windows world, some of your applications are going to have to be oddball.


Just as you can be consistent on Linux, you can be so on Windows too.

No, the Linux kernel has loadable modules.


...which have to be compiled if you happen to have a piece of hardware your distribution of choice doesn't like.

Far less so than the problems people have when switching to the latest version of Windows, and finding that the drivers on the CDROMs that came with their hardware are all XP drivers, and they don't work with Windows 7.


...which are then downloaded through Windows Update.

Reply Parent Score: 1

KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06

If you are referring to GUI configuration, yes. But that sure has it advantages: Everybody who has used Windows since version 95 can use the next person's Windows as well. No confusion, just start working.

As you confirm: GUI-wise almost no advances since Win95.


"* Ani-malware tools are a requirement.

I disagree. The noobs may need it, companies may need it. Advanced users and power users don't necessarily need it, brain.exe should be sufficent.
"
So ~95% of all Windows need it? Great...


"* Half my hardware needs drivers that have to be downloaded first.

Get past the XP days, please. Today, in most cases Windows 7 just detects everything and loads the drivers needed via Windows Update.
"
I don't have WinXP installed. I have Vista on my laptop. Half the hardware needs additional driver downloads.
Vista/7 doesn't even have drivers for my desktop PC's GPU.


"* No decent window management.

IMHO that is true for pre W7
"
So you confirm that Microsoft did play catch-up with KDE/Linux.
Thanks.

And one feature that KDE now copies from W7

Wow, a single sub-feature of window management is copied by KDE, while MS copied the whole idea of windows management and it took MS only a single decade... great...

"* No consistency among applications (menu bar below toolbar here, menu bar above toolbar there, ribbon somewhere else)


Well, Linux is only consistent among apps if you use a small set of poster child apps. My favorite jukebox on Linux is Songbird, it looks totally different to anything else.
"
Songbird is not a typical Linux app. It aims to copy iTunes' look and feel. On all platforms, including Windows.
On Linux there's a smaller difference between typical GTK and Qt apps usability-wise than differences between MS' own products (Office, Internet Explorer, Media Player).


"KDE/Linux:
* Hardware works out of the box.


Only as long as it decides not to work ;-)
"
Then the hardware is broken and works nowhere.


That sure is an argument easily destroyed. If the Kernel version of yours doesn't support a particular component, you are pretty much screwed.

So is trying to use a Radeon 9200 graphics card with Vista/7. It's a perfectly fine GPU for office work, browsing, emails, ...
Yet current Windows versions don't support it.

These days Intel and AMD develop their drivers in the open. In fact Linux got USB 3.0 support way before Windows did.

And look at different Linux forums, people do have problems and things may break when switching to a newer version of your distribution.

So? Windows users never have problems when upgrading? Riight...

"* Major leaps in functionality every six months.


A lot of it is just catch up. You may give some examples.
"
* System-wide spell checking: KDE has it for many years (even before OSX), Windows doesn't.

* Special netbook GUI in upcoming KDE SC 4.4.

* System-wide configurable shortcuts in KDE since years.

* Build-in support for Cisco VPN and many other VPNs in Linux/NetworkManager since years.

* Widgets on desktop: KDE/Linux has it for years, Windows only since 7.

* Decent window management: KDE/Linux has it for years, Windows only since 7, but KWin's is way more configurable.

* Composite window renderer: While Mac OS X had it first, Linux followed a bit later. It took MS until Vista to copy that.

* Tabbed window management: KWin 4.4 will have it, Windows ... hm... maybe Win8, maybe never.

* Activities -- major leap from traditional virtual desktops. And Win can only do traditional virtual desktops with additional tools.

* Build-in web browser that supports web standards: KDE has it for years and leaped further ahead of Win/IE with the adoption of WebKit. IE8 is the first halfway decent browser to come out from MS since IE4.

* Syntax highlighting in default text editor: KDE has it for years, MS' Notepad is just Notepad.

* Mail client that supports spam filtering: KMail has it since many years, MS needed to catch up with Windows Mail.

* If skilled enough: possibility to fix or enhance KDE/Linux by myself. FOSS does this since its beginning, Windows not.


Those are just a few features that Windows either lacks or MS was the catch up player. It isn't a complete list, but you've just asked for some examples.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

As you confirm: GUI-wise almost no advances since Win95.


Right, because a completely new and advanced graphical stack, which renders everything using the GPU, is completely foolproof, can switch drivers without having to restart all your applications and desktop, which can crash and recover gracefully without losing any data is no advance?

And let's not get started on the completely new graphical look, and the boatload of new window management features which KDE has only just started copying (which is good - good ideas need to be spread).

Vista/7 doesn't even have drivers for my desktop PC's GPU.


I don't believe that. Windows Update has drivers for ALL GPU brands - Intel, NVIDIA, ATI, and even though I don't have a VIA chip to test with, I'm sure they ae just as supported through WU.

Then the hardware is broken and works nowhere.


Haha, good one. So, hardware that doesn't work on Windows - Windows fault. Hardware that doesn't work on Linux - hardware is broken. Right.

Both platforms have excellent hardware support out-of-the-box these days. It used to be that Linux was better out-of-the-box, and Windows better at installing third-party drivers - but the two platforms have grown towards one another on these, so far even that only zealots stuck in the past argue that either of the two is better in either of the two issues (third party/out-of-the-box).

Edited 2009-12-15 12:30 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

siride Member since:
2006-01-02

Just a quick note to one item of yours:
Vista had widgets on the desktop. XP had compositing support (actually, I think 2000 had it too). KWin extra WM features are cute, but most people don't need them. If you want them on Windows, download one of the extenders. They're out there and probably work better than KWin's sloppy implementation anyways. I don't even know why you bring up web browsers because it's so frickin' easy to download Firefox or Chrome and don't tell me about KDE coming with a good webbrowser. KHTML is shite these days and everybody knows it.

Most of your post just betrays your ignorance of Windows (as well as Linux, actually). Typical zealot crap.

Reply Parent Score: 3