Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 11th Feb 2010 18:29 UTC
Opera Software Everybody's favourite Norwegian browser maker has released the beta version of Opera 10.50, the next iteration of the featureful web browser. As Kroc already touched upon late last year, Opera 10.50 comes packed with a lot of improvements across the board, from a new JavaScript engine to an improved address field.
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PresentIt
Member since:
2010-02-10

The native skin was included as standard, it just wasn't the default.

Exactly. And now the native skin is useless since they are moving to a standard skin which is even more native for the latest Windows versions.

with a few tweaks it's still a full MDI app, that works just like other proper MDI apps.

Wrong. Opera's UI is not a native Windows UI. It's using their own cross-platform toolkit, which means that they had to emulate MDI. And while doing so, they added all sorts of hacks. Opera acts nothing like a standard Windows MDI app no matter what you dp.

Change a few options and the 10.10 UI can work almost exactly like Opera 2/3 from 96/97, with all the same MDI features. Opera 10.5 is a big change from that.

And THAT is why they shouldn't have released it? LOL. MDI is irrelevant for 99.999%. Shipping a beta without finishing MDI is perfectly fine.

The Dragonfly debugger is itself an alpha test of optional development tools - it isn't a core browser feature.

Irrelevant. It was released with after a beta version.

The cookie manager, password manager and fraud protection were added in 7.1 and 9.1 - updates to Opera which never had their own beta releases.

Wrong.

That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of previous Opera betas were feature complete, without seriously broken functionality, and mainly just needed tweaks and bug fixes before release. You've just proven that point.

Again, you are wrong. And the fact is that MDI is irrelevant in the big picture.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16


Exactly. And now the native skin is useless since they are moving to a standard skin which is even more native for the latest Windows versions.


Only if you use the latest versions of Windows and their standard skins, change that and Opera's default look doesn't fit in. The native skin looked like a Windows app whether I was running Windows 2000, XP, or Vista. From my perspective, as someone who doesn't like fancy looking GUIs, the new look is a step backwards.

Wrong. Opera's UI is not a native Windows UI. It's using their own cross-platform toolkit, which means that they had to emulate MDI. And while doing so, they added all sorts of hacks. Opera acts nothing like a standard Windows MDI app no matter what you dp.


You just don't know what you're talking about. I can't believe that you're still spouting such utter nonsense when you could look for yourself and see that you're mistaken.

Opera 10.10 and earlier do not use a cross-platform UI - that's something Opera have added in 10.5 with vega. Opera 10.10 and earlier do not emulate MDI, they are pure Windows MDI apps that can work exactly like any other pure Windows MDI app. MDI isn't emulated, it's just hidden from new users, who generally only see any evidence of it when dealing with pop-up windows.

Look on the Opera forums if you don't believe me. Opera developers have talked about why there are issues with MDI in 10.5. They have directly stated that previous Windows versions used standard Windows MDI, and that the change to the vega graphics library - where there are no longer real MDI windows for each web page - has made it necessary to rebuild MDI functionality from scratch, rather than just keeping the standard Windows MDI features.

Here's a screenshot of a stripped down, minimalist Opera 10 configuration with MDI turned on:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9392/op10mdi.jpg

Notice how even minimising pages down to a little bar at the bottom works in Opera's standard MDI? As does tiling and cascading MDI windows, just like in other MDI apps. This is the case because Opera 10.10 and earlier are standard MDI apps under their skin.

"The Dragonfly debugger is itself an alpha test of optional development tools - it isn't a core browser feature.

Irrelevant. It was released with after a beta version.
"

No, it isn't irrelevant, it's a separate, optional utility that they're currently testing on developers, not part of the browser itself. What part of the fact that Dragonfly itself is just an alpha test didn't you understand? Do you even know what Dragonfly is?

"The cookie manager, password manager and fraud protection were added in 7.1 and 9.1 - updates to Opera which never had their own beta releases.

Wrong.
"

No it isn't wrong. Look at the Opera version history that you linked. That makes it completely and unambiguously clear that those features were added in Opera updates, not features that changed between the beta and final. What is difficult to understand about that?

Do you realise how much of an idiot you look when you make a mistake and then refuse to admit it, just posting "wrong" instead of either defending your point or dropping it?

Again, you are wrong. And the fact is that MDI is irrelevant in the big picture.


Whether MDI is irrelevant in the "big picture" is itself irrelevant to my point. Obviously if you don't use the features that are badly broken in 10.5 then they don't matter to you, but that doesn't change the fact that certain features in the beta are full of bugs and barely usable.

All I'm saying - and this point is supported by Opera's history - is that their past betas were typically highly functional, more-or-less feature complete, and perfectly usable - with the major problems reported in pre-betas already fixed. I simply find the fact that 10.5 is an exception to that rule very disappointing.

Reply Parent Score: 2

PresentIt Member since:
2010-02-10

Only if you use the latest versions of Windows and their standard skins, change that and Opera's default look doesn't fit in.


Opera 10.10 and earlier do not use a cross-platform UI - that's something Opera have added in 10.5 with vega.

Wrong. They use a UI toolkit called "quick".

Opera 10.10 and earlier do not emulate MDI, they are pure Windows MDI apps that can work exactly like any other pure Windows MDI app.

Wrong again. They rewrote the UI using Quick in version 7. They had to re-implement everything from scratch.

They have directly stated that previous Windows versions used standard Windows MDI, and that the change to the vega graphics library

Wrong again. Yes, the situation is because of Vega, but they did not use standard Windows MDI. How could they, when they were using the Quick UI toolkit?

This is the case because Opera 10.10 and earlier are standard MDI apps under their skin.

Wrong. All "MDI" in Opera 7 and later is all re-implemented by Opera.

No, it isn't irrelevant, it's a separate, optional utility

It was made part of Opera (there's UI in the actual browser) after a beta. Fail.

No it isn't wrong. Look at the Opera version history that you linked. That makes it completely and unambiguously clear that those features were added in Opera updates, not features that changed between the beta and final.

Again, you are wrong.

All I'm saying - and this point is supported by Opera's history - is that their past betas were typically highly functional, more-or-less feature complete, and perfectly usable - with the major problems reported in pre-betas already fixed.

This is wrong. And furthermore, MDI is not a major problem. It's a trivial corner-case.

I simply find the fact that 10.5 is an exception to that rule very disappointing.

Again, you are wrong.

Reply Parent Score: 1