Linked by Kroc Camen on Thu 25th Feb 2010 10:18 UTC
Humor BBC News reports "Mark your diaries for 4 March because in Denver the funeral arrangements are well underway for the planned passing that day of Internet Explorer 6". There's a phobia of being buried alive but I think in this case, it's the living that are all too quick to be shoveling the dirt over as IE6 doesn't officially die until 2014 when Microsoft pull the life-support.
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Lazy developers
by larwilliams2 on Fri 26th Feb 2010 01:42 UTC
larwilliams2
Member since:
2009-12-02

Any web developer who cannot design a site to be well-formed and clean, and then use conditional comments to get IE6 to deal with it, is incompetent.

Most of the IE6 glitches are either due to the fact that it implemented the W3C box model too early (and some details of it changed after IE6 was released), or with margins and positioning that can be fixed by triggering hasLayout using "zoom:1;" on the effected element.

Another problem that causing rendering issues in IE6 is simply having a bad DTD or xml declaration (XML declarations should ALWAYS be omitted) at the top of a document, putting it in Quirks mode instead of Standards mode.

I design sites every week using all sorts of CSS and HTML features, and IE6 is rarely a problem.

It's only a problem if the developer doesn't know what they are doing ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Lazy developers
by deathshadow on Fri 26th Feb 2010 01:46 in reply to "Lazy developers"
deathshadow Member since:
2005-07-12

[q]and then use conditional comments to get IE6 to deal with it, is incompetent.[q]
and even then you don't NEED that conditional comment bull bloating out your markup since if you just avoid declaring width or height same time as padding/border, know what a haslayout trigger is, know about setting display:inline on floats when margins are messed up, avoid using margin when possible, occasionally use * html with a behavior file or expression for missing functionality...

As I said in my other post it's maybe 10 lines of extra CSS with nothing extra in the markup.

Conditional comments in the markup? Completely unnecessary!

But yeah, the only real explanation for this type of nonsense is called being lazy - nothing more, nothing less.

Well, except perhaps trying to deploy specifications NOT EVEN OUT OF DRAFT on production websites - specifications that should not be real world deployable for at least four years AFTER it leaves draft. (given how well CSS2's rollout went)

Besides, if you're gonna bury IE6, you should bury firefox as well given it's gaping holes in the HTML4/CSS2 specification, many of which (like the infamous bugzilla 915) are over a decade old.

Even the media darling is no prize pig.

Edited 2010-02-26 01:49 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Lazy developers
by werpu on Fri 26th Feb 2010 16:40 in reply to "Lazy developers"
werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

The problem is less the standard CSS stuff, thats where IE6 can be layouted with conditional includes, hell starts with all dynamic web applications which have become modern... Also modern layouts do not scale well with all their transparencies and rounded corners, but you still can hack them in. Sheesh IE6 now is 9 years old and has had 2 revisions afterwards, get rid of it finally.
I am glad that Google is doing this.
Btw. the more dynamic content you get in the higher the effort becomes, my last count was 30% of additional implementation time to support IE6 in dynamic rich client interfaces on the ajax side of things. Given its marketshare hard to justify this anymore.

This data stems from a corporation I was involved in a project with which had lots of dynamic stuff in, and believe me, the CSS layout was our least concern regarding IE6 support. There were bigger issues in bugs, in IE6 having two separate rendering engines for different types of controls which are not properly synchronized against each other, performance issues on the dom tree, dom bugs which show at the fifth nesting layer of a dynamically replaced element etc...
A simply page supporting IE6 with a semi modern layout still is easy, but pulling off more complicated stuff is simply not justifyable anymore, hence Google is phasing out all its sites regarding IE6 I assume they have less than 5% of IE 6 users on their non search engine sites... It is not worthwhile anymore.

Ah yes and good luck getting bugfixes for all this stuff from Microsoft, the only bugfix to all this is IE7 which fixed about 5 bugs (like PNG transparency and the famous div bleedthrough bug (aka elements of the second native Windows based control rendering engine bleed through divs no matter which Z-Order they have)) closed a few loopholes for layout hacks and opened a can of worms of other bugs. The final bugfix for IE6 is ie8 the first bearable browser enginewise, Microsoft has delivered.

Edited 2010-02-26 16:48 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Lazy developers
by deathshadow on Fri 26th Feb 2010 22:38 in reply to "RE: Lazy developers"
deathshadow Member since:
2005-07-12

thats where IE6 can be layouted with conditional includes

Which if resorted to usually means the developer doesn't know enough HTML and CSS to be doing the work they are doing. It can be done without that conditional bullcookies too.

hell starts with all dynamic web applications which have become modern...

Many of which are such coding disasters out of the gate they are a miserable /FAIL/ - NOT because of the web technologies, but because the coders don't have a **** clue what they are doing which is why the resort to crap bloated frameworks like jquery and mootools - usually either for **** CSS can do without help, or for **** that turns the website into a total accessibility /FAIL/.



Also modern layouts do not scale well with all their transparencies and rounded corners

1) If you are talking alpha transparancy, those fat bloated slow .png resulting in two megabyte websites are usually sufficient cause to bitch slap the developer. Pre-compositing can get rid of 90% of alpha transparency use - and the rest can often be pulled off with 'close enough' aliasing with palettized transparency; Both of which usually result in smaller files.

This is teh intartubes, smaller files are a good thing.

I am glad that Google is doing this.

Last I checked, google has nothing to do with the funeral.

Btw. the more dynamic content you get in the higher the effort becomes, my last count was 30% of additional implementation time to support IE6 in dynamic rich client interfaces on the ajax side of things.

Then I would suspect you are using AJAX for **** you shouldn't be using AJAX for, though if it IS something you should use AJAX for, are you tacking on some bloated framework along with that? You know, the only thing you can learn from jquery is how NOT to write javascript?

That or you're blowing bandwidth on *** that could be handled faster server side... especially with AJAX still requiring server side programming to function.

In IE6 having two separate rendering engines for different types of controls which are not properly synchronized against each other

Not certain what you mean by that, but it sounds like you are overcomplicating whatever it is that was trying to be done.

performance issues on the dom tree

Ok, you have me on that. IE's DOM is slow - which is why you are better off not dicking with the DOM in the first place... The whole 'official' way of creating new elements in js torques my nuts since it ends up like 20 lines of complex dom chicanery for what could be done in one line with InnerHTML.

Which is why I think innerHTML should be made official and no longer considered proprietary; but since every browser with a .js engine actually supports it, I don't give a **** if it's 'offically in the specification' or not.

Though creating elements via javascript, aka DHTML, is a miserable **** accessibility /FAIL/ you shouldn't be doing in the first damned place. Javascript should enhance functionality, NOT supplant it. (just like CSS and every other optional technology you can put atop HTML)

So many websites out there right now are unusable garbage becuase of things like DHTML... See Google basically giving Opera users the finger and telling them to *** off when it comes to Google Apps.

Reply Parent Score: 2

It's matter of productivity, not laziness
by nt_jerkface on Sat 27th Feb 2010 08:33 in reply to "Lazy developers"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Developers who don't want to spend 20% of their time coding for a legacy browser aren't slothful. They want to direct their efforts towards productive work.

IE6 is a black hole when it comes to productivity.

Reply Parent Score: 2