Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 6th Mar 2010 19:45 UTC
General Development Dust off your he's-a-Microsoft-fanboy complaints, people, because here's yet another story praising the Redmond software giant (sorry). In case you were wondering what the Xbox Live integration on Windows Phone 7 Series (inhale, signified by a comma), meant, then Eric Rudder (what's in a name), Microsoft's Senior Vice President of Technical Strategy, has the answer for you - and it's pretty impressive.
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KermitTheFragger
Member since:
2008-06-12


Java - Yick. I hate Java desktop apps they are bloated and slow as molasses. Java - Yick. I hate Java desktop apps they are bloated and slow as molasses

What a well presented point... Slow compared to what ? Plain C ? I've seen plenty of crappy C programs. Are we going to judge a language by the programs *some* of its developers write? Do you even know what the performance and memory semantics of the JVM are ?

Java is also in lots of low memory devices like phones, BMW 5 serie cars and the mars rovers.


It has been a a couple of years since I have been in that environment so perhaps that has changed. But I hate Java and wish it would die a quick death.

I guess that answers my first question. So first you admit you haven't worked with it for years and admit your not up to date. Then next you wish it dead even though you just admitted you know nothing about it ?


You will not see Java being used in the entertainment industry, especially console gaming.

That right, thats why they would never incorporate Java in the bluray specification so that players would need to implement it...oh..wait...they have.


No offense Java developers, you can take your skills to C/C++/ObjC/PHP/Whatever... ;-)

If Java developers were forced to move away from Java, the next logical language / platform would be c# / .net. How can you even compare PHP with Java ? Its a totally different solution.

Reply Parent Score: 3

MysterMask Member since:
2005-07-12


If Java developers were forced to move away from Java, the next logical language / platform would be c# / .net.


No. Actually, that would be the most illogical one. Why move from the real thing to a copy of it? Doesn't make any sense at all. C# will face the same problems Java has now (e. g. going for hype and language bloat instead of pursuing simplicity in concepts and ease of use).

I guess that most Java devs wouldn't consider something that limits them to a single platform from a single vendor (and please don't come up with Mono here - there are good reasons why it's not an alternative).

There are better options e. g. Scala might be a good choice if you don't want to loose investments into Java.

Reply Parent Score: 2

NeoX Member since:
2006-02-19


What a well presented point... Slow compared to what ? Plain C ? I've seen plenty of crappy C programs. Are we going to judge a language by the programs *some* of its developers write? Do you even know what the performance and memory semantics of the JVM are ?

Java is also in lots of low memory devices like phones, BMW 5 serie cars and the mars rovers.


Oh so your argument is that because it is in a phone and a BMW I should like it? The apps I used and help deploy were noticeably slower then "native" apps. Again, if you want to write in Java go for it, but make an app that has a native look and feel. Java apps for the desktop seldom do that, especially on OS X.



That right, thats why they would never incorporate Java in the bluray specification so that players would need to implement it...oh..wait...they have.

Nice try. Oh wait those games on bluray are fantastic. NOT! Are you serious? BluRay uses Java for more interaction then DVDs had to offer. How does that change my opinion for desktop Java apps? It doesnt. Are there any console games you can buy for the PS3, XBOX360, PSP, Wii, PS2, DS at the store that are made with Java? If it is so lightweight and fast why doesn't the game industry make it a standard? Think about if they did. A game developer could write a game in Java and deploy to all the consoles that could interpret Java. Oh wait that's right, Java is an interpreted language and not suitable for high performance apps like games for consoles. Oh I know they have made strides with the latest JVM implementations, but still not there yet...


How can you even compare PHP with Java ? Its a totally different solution.

Sure it is, but the syntax is also based on C and that was my point. Not that you would use it as a replacement, just that a Java dev could probably pick it up fairly easy.


I mean wow, you post your opinion and experiences with Java and Java apps and it's like you killed someones cat. So sorry I offended all you Java lovers... I have been around computers since before Java was around and yeah it had a bad rep for YEARS. It was well known that it wasn't very hot in the performance area. Ok so they are really trying to change that, great but I still don't like DESKTOP apps created with it.

Reply Parent Score: 1

KermitTheFragger Member since:
2008-06-12


Oh so your argument is that because it is in a phone and a BMW I should like it? The apps I used and help deploy were noticeably slower then "native" apps.


You hit the nail on the head there: "The apps I used and help deploy ". I used Cisco crappy Java GUI's. They are quite possibly the worst piece of Java engineering on this planet. So why exactly are you complaining about the language / platform if you know the problem is with vendors who made the program ?


but make an app that has a native look and feel. Java apps for the desktop seldom do that, especially on OS X.

Same thing here: "Java apps for the desktop seldom". You basically say it yourself; Java programmers don't generally do that. So what is the issue with the language ? You can use SWT if you want to go native.


Are there any console games you can buy for the PS3, XBOX360, PSP, Wii, PS2, DS at the store that are made with Java? If it is so lightweight and fast why doesn't the game industry make it a standard?


Perhaps for the same reason a dozen other languages are not the defacto standard in the game world (like C# or Assembler) ? What are you saying here ? Game programming is the most intesive use of computer applications in the world ? Requires the THE best language ? So the language that most games are made in must be the best language in the world ? Is that the logic ?

Besides, since when does market adoption equal quality ?

Also you conveniently forget all the Java games on mobile phones. I suppose your going to say; yeah but there just games on small devices: Makes the memory and performance constraints even harder.


wait that's right, Java is an interpreted language and not suitable for high performance apps like games for consoles. Oh I know they have made strides with the latest JVM implementations, but still not there yet...


Right, another expert on profiling the JVM. Could you please tell me a bit about your background before I take your word for it that for example the Sun JVM is slow ?

Besides if you don't like it you can compile all Java programs ahead of time with GCJ or Excelsior JET. Thats right, it can be compiled to an executable just like C, C++ or whatever would. Since it isn't interpreted when you AOT compile it, your point simply isn't valid.


Sure it is, but the syntax is also based on C and that was my point. Not that you would use it as a replacement, just that a Java dev could probably pick it up fairly easy.


Right, thats a bit over simplistic look of things. Thats like saying water and oil are the same thing, there both wet.


it had a bad rep for YEARS

Sure it did, but your presenting all your points as your own opinion, right ?

Reply Parent Score: 1