Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 9th Mar 2010 16:58 UTC
Legal We have some very, very good news for Europeans (which happens to include myself): we have the European Parliament on our sides when it comes to battling ACTA. If you may recall, ACTA is basically an attempt by the US to impose upon the rest of the world draconian measures like three strikes laws and the DMCA. All parties within the European Parliament have together put forth a resolution that would effectively tackle ACTA.
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WereCatf
Member since:
2006-02-15

No it would be quite easy. Repeat offenders would be reported to ISPs and they would lose service after being warned. It's that simple.

Who would do the reporting? ISPs? Some private companies? Police?

No private companies should have the right to monitor everyone's activities and data on the Internet, that'd be a serious breach of privacy and rights.

ISPs? Well, I already explained why that'd be a very bad idea.

Police? They're already busy with other stuff, and besides, only ISPs have access to every part of their network and only ISPs can log everything needed. A random entity on the Internet can only log what _appears_ to be a certain IP or MAC address, they can't know for certain if it is actually it.

Besides, who'd maintain what is legal and what isn't? What is illegal in one country isn't that in another and as such all countries would have to change their criminal laws.

IP spoofing is not easy if you are targeting a specific range. Packets can be traced and network logs will show if a 7 GB movie actually went through your local hub or not.

IP spoofing isn't easy? Gee, go ask any network administrator about that. And while at it, ask how easy it is to spoof MAC addresses too.

And about the local hub: well gee, only ISPs can monitor and log all of their hubs..

It isn't a right and there's always the public library. The only people that would have a problem with this are the ones who pirate media.

Actually incorrect. Here in Finland atleast Internet access IS a legal right. I don't know if it is in other countries though. And no, people who value general rights and privacy also have a problem with this; someone constantly sniffing out what you're doing just happens to be a privacy intrusion and as easy as it is to spoof things on the Internet only ISPs have all the needed requirements to be able to fully monitor what is going on.

Because tacitly allowing digital piracy is harmful to the industries that create the digital products that people enjoy. Laws need to exist that encourage people to buy media from the people that made it. That doesn't need to involve jailtime.

Piracy is harmful to any kind of industry, not just digital industry. And sure, if such laws could be made I'd be for them, but ONLY as long as they wouldn't breach one's privacy or personal rights. Unfortunately, ACTA doesn't qualify.

Reply Parent Score: 3

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

No private companies should have the right to monitor everyone's activities and data on the Internet, that'd be a serious breach of privacy and rights.


What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?

There is no right to illegal activity, especially when using a private service.


Besides, who'd maintain what is legal and what isn't? What is illegal in one country isn't that in another and as such all countries would have to change their criminal laws.


There are already treaties on copyright laws between Western nations.


IP spoofing isn't easy? Gee, go ask any network administrator about that. And while at it, ask how easy it is to spoof MAC addresses too.

There's a huge difference between using a fake IP and faking someone's IP to make it look like they torrented a bunch of movies.

If someone downloads 20gb in movies your ISP can tell if 20gb of torrent packets actually went through to you during that period. IP spoofing can be used to make it look like you visited certain websites but for p2p transfer there is still data that needs to be accounted for.


Actually incorrect. Here in Finland atleast Internet access IS a legal right. I don't know if it is in other countries though.

People lose legal rights when they break the law. Internet access should be the same way.


Piracy is harmful to any kind of industry, not just digital industry. And sure, if such laws could be made I'd be for them, but ONLY as long as they wouldn't breach one's privacy or personal rights. Unfortunately, ACTA doesn't qualify.


No enforcement has the same effect as having no laws.

A balance between privacy and support for content producers needs to be found or else you are allowing piracy to exist. Pirates will not come forward on their own and report themselves. Copyright laws will be widely ignored if the populace knows that the government won't enforce them. We've already seen this happen in parts of Asia.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?


Holy crap - since when is downloading copyrighted content akin to child pornography? Does the RIAA have an army of grown men raping a little girl every time I download a song?

Dear lord, you are delusional. There should be a Godwin's law equivalent for this one.

I'm out.

Reply Parent Score: 5

danieldk Member since:
2005-11-18

What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?


Here we go again. Humans do bad stuff. Let's call in brain police!


There are already treaties on copyright laws between Western nations.


There is a difference between 'is' and 'ought'. Philosophy 101.

People lose legal rights when they break the law.


Right. Do you lose the legal right not to get tortured, to get food, shelter, etc.? No you don't, at least not in the civilized part of the world.

Piracy is harmful to any kind of industry, not just digital industry.


1. Piracy is people looting ships.
2. Currently, the entertainment industry is more harmful to society than any 'pirate'. And in the end, we get to make the laws, not the entertainment industry.

Reply Parent Score: 4

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?

There is no right to illegal activity, especially when using a private service.


First of all, trying to turn this discussion to child porn is not only misleading it's also downright stupid. Child porn hurts real people whereas digital piracy hurts only someone's wallet, and even then it hurts that person's wallet if the person downloading unauthorized material would buy it if it wasn't accessible; if the person wouldn't buy it anyway even if it wasn't accessible in an unauthorized form then it doesn't hurt anyone's pocket at all. So, child porn and digital piracy are two VERY different things.

Now secondly, I still think no private corporation should be allowed to monitor one's traffic, even if it was about child porn. Only the service provider (ie. in the case of child porn it'd be the company hosting those files), ISP or police should have the right to do that, no one else, and even then they should not be allowed to monitor all kinds of traffic.

There's a huge difference between using a fake IP and faking someone's IP to make it look like they torrented a bunch of movies.

How exactly? Do you suppose that when you fake an IP address it just somehow magically appears in a log without any data going back and forth? I don't know enough to spoof things myself but it doesn't mean it ain't possible.

If someone downloads 20gb in movies your ISP can tell if 20gb of torrent packets actually went through to you during that period.

Oo, and AGAIN we circulate to ISPs having to log all traffic. And AGAIN you choose to ignore that whole thing.

People lose legal rights when they break the law. Internet access should be the same way.

They lose only a very small subset of them and only temporarily. For example electricity is a basic right; even if you do illegal electricity work at your home and get disconnected from a certain provider you are still free to make a contract with another one. The same applies to Internet: it is a basic right and if you do something illegal you may get disconnected from that provider but you are free to make another contract.

A balance between privacy and support for content producers needs to be found or else you are allowing piracy to exist. Pirates will not come forward on their own and report themselves. Copyright laws will be widely ignored if the populace knows that the government won't enforce them. We've already seen this happen in parts of Asia.

Indeed. Then come up with a law that doesn't trample on people's rights and I'll support it. I still won't accept ACTA.

Reply Parent Score: 3

the_leander Member since:
2005-07-01



What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?


Congratulations, you've just performed the copyright equivalent of Godwins Law.

You can stop posting now as you have just lost the argument.


There is no right to illegal activity, especially when using a private service.


That includes defamation sunbeam.



There's a huge difference between using a fake IP and faking someone's IP to make it look like they torrented a bunch of movies.

If someone downloads 20gb in movies your ISP can tell if 20gb of torrent packets actually went through to you during that period. IP spoofing can be used to make it look like you visited certain websites but for p2p transfer there is still data that needs to be accounted for.


TOR.




No enforcement has the same effect as having no laws.

A balance between privacy and support for content producers needs to be found or else you are allowing piracy to exist. Pirates will not come forward on their own and report themselves. Copyright laws will be widely ignored if the populace knows that the government won't enforce them. We've already seen this happen in parts of Asia.


Likewise copyright as it exists in the US and UK is a nonsense. If your laws are viewed by the general populous as being a joke or ridiculous, they are far less likely to obey.

Reply Parent Score: 3