Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 9th Mar 2010 16:58 UTC
Legal We have some very, very good news for Europeans (which happens to include myself): we have the European Parliament on our sides when it comes to battling ACTA. If you may recall, ACTA is basically an attempt by the US to impose upon the rest of the world draconian measures like three strikes laws and the DMCA. All parties within the European Parliament have together put forth a resolution that would effectively tackle ACTA.
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nt_jerkface
Member since:
2009-08-26

No private companies should have the right to monitor everyone's activities and data on the Internet, that'd be a serious breach of privacy and rights.


What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?

There is no right to illegal activity, especially when using a private service.


Besides, who'd maintain what is legal and what isn't? What is illegal in one country isn't that in another and as such all countries would have to change their criminal laws.


There are already treaties on copyright laws between Western nations.


IP spoofing isn't easy? Gee, go ask any network administrator about that. And while at it, ask how easy it is to spoof MAC addresses too.

There's a huge difference between using a fake IP and faking someone's IP to make it look like they torrented a bunch of movies.

If someone downloads 20gb in movies your ISP can tell if 20gb of torrent packets actually went through to you during that period. IP spoofing can be used to make it look like you visited certain websites but for p2p transfer there is still data that needs to be accounted for.


Actually incorrect. Here in Finland atleast Internet access IS a legal right. I don't know if it is in other countries though.

People lose legal rights when they break the law. Internet access should be the same way.


Piracy is harmful to any kind of industry, not just digital industry. And sure, if such laws could be made I'd be for them, but ONLY as long as they wouldn't breach one's privacy or personal rights. Unfortunately, ACTA doesn't qualify.


No enforcement has the same effect as having no laws.

A balance between privacy and support for content producers needs to be found or else you are allowing piracy to exist. Pirates will not come forward on their own and report themselves. Copyright laws will be widely ignored if the populace knows that the government won't enforce them. We've already seen this happen in parts of Asia.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?


Holy crap - since when is downloading copyrighted content akin to child pornography? Does the RIAA have an army of grown men raping a little girl every time I download a song?

Dear lord, you are delusional. There should be a Godwin's law equivalent for this one.

I'm out.

Reply Parent Score: 5

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


Holy crap - since when is downloading copyrighted content akin to child pornography? Does the RIAA have an army of grown men raping a little girl every time I download a song?


Oh so you don't believe in a total right to privacy on the internet. You just want privacy when people are downloading copyrighted material. Got it.

I'm guessing you support undermining copyright laws out of spite towards the entertainment industries.

You can hate Hollywood and record companies without supporting widespread piracy which undermines indy producers as well. In fact Hollywood and the large record companies are in a better position to withstand the elimination of copyright laws than small producers.

There will always be box office and controlled release sales for Hollywood and music companies can always tour their big hits. You would be destroying the itunes revenue of the overweight jazz artist who can only make money by depending on copyright. Programmers can't go on tour either which means you would put millions of geeks out of work if you just allowed everyone to download whatever they wanted.

Reply Parent Score: 2

danieldk Member since:
2005-11-18

What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?


Here we go again. Humans do bad stuff. Let's call in brain police!


There are already treaties on copyright laws between Western nations.


There is a difference between 'is' and 'ought'. Philosophy 101.

People lose legal rights when they break the law.


Right. Do you lose the legal right not to get tortured, to get food, shelter, etc.? No you don't, at least not in the civilized part of the world.

Piracy is harmful to any kind of industry, not just digital industry.


1. Piracy is people looting ships.
2. Currently, the entertainment industry is more harmful to society than any 'pirate'. And in the end, we get to make the laws, not the entertainment industry.

Reply Parent Score: 4

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Currently, the entertainment industry is more harmful to society than any 'pirate'. And in the end, we get to make the laws, not the entertainment industry.


A lot of hatred towards intellectual property laws seems to be misplaced. If you eliminated copyright you would eliminate the paychecks of millions that have nothing to do with the entertainment industry.

I believe that Hollywood has an unhealthy influence on the world overall but I don't see that as a reason to support piracy. Hollywood will always make movies and allowing piracy just makes them free to watch. People would probably watch fewer Hollywood movies if they weren't so easy to pirate.

The answer to reducing the influence of Hollywood is in enabling indy and foreign video producers. That includes having a system where there is an incentive to compensate indy producers for their work. If you eliminated copyright Hollywood would just keep their movies in the theaters longer. Theaters ignore most indy movies which means that indy producers that currently rely on media sales would be destroyed.

Reply Parent Score: 2

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?

There is no right to illegal activity, especially when using a private service.


First of all, trying to turn this discussion to child porn is not only misleading it's also downright stupid. Child porn hurts real people whereas digital piracy hurts only someone's wallet, and even then it hurts that person's wallet if the person downloading unauthorized material would buy it if it wasn't accessible; if the person wouldn't buy it anyway even if it wasn't accessible in an unauthorized form then it doesn't hurt anyone's pocket at all. So, child porn and digital piracy are two VERY different things.

Now secondly, I still think no private corporation should be allowed to monitor one's traffic, even if it was about child porn. Only the service provider (ie. in the case of child porn it'd be the company hosting those files), ISP or police should have the right to do that, no one else, and even then they should not be allowed to monitor all kinds of traffic.

There's a huge difference between using a fake IP and faking someone's IP to make it look like they torrented a bunch of movies.

How exactly? Do you suppose that when you fake an IP address it just somehow magically appears in a log without any data going back and forth? I don't know enough to spoof things myself but it doesn't mean it ain't possible.

If someone downloads 20gb in movies your ISP can tell if 20gb of torrent packets actually went through to you during that period.

Oo, and AGAIN we circulate to ISPs having to log all traffic. And AGAIN you choose to ignore that whole thing.

People lose legal rights when they break the law. Internet access should be the same way.

They lose only a very small subset of them and only temporarily. For example electricity is a basic right; even if you do illegal electricity work at your home and get disconnected from a certain provider you are still free to make a contract with another one. The same applies to Internet: it is a basic right and if you do something illegal you may get disconnected from that provider but you are free to make another contract.

A balance between privacy and support for content producers needs to be found or else you are allowing piracy to exist. Pirates will not come forward on their own and report themselves. Copyright laws will be widely ignored if the populace knows that the government won't enforce them. We've already seen this happen in parts of Asia.

Indeed. Then come up with a law that doesn't trample on people's rights and I'll support it. I still won't accept ACTA.

Reply Parent Score: 3

nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


First of all, trying to turn this discussion to child porn is not only misleading it's also downright stupid.

I'm making a point that no one is for a 100% private internet.


Child porn hurts real people whereas digital piracy hurts only someone's wallet


It destroys real paychecks and you don't seem to care about that. You support busting people who download child porn which I agree with but you don't support busting even the worst piracy offenders because you seem to believe that digital thieves are for some reason special enough for protection.


Now secondly, I still think no private corporation should be allowed to monitor one's traffic, even if it was about child porn.

That doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't a private entity be allowed to do it? Would you shut down a corporation that busts hundreds of child pornographers a year through IP tracing? Would it be ok if they were a non-profit?


Oo, and AGAIN we circulate to ISPs having to log all traffic. And AGAIN you choose to ignore that whole thing.


That type of traffic is already logged. You can fake an IP address but you can't fake an established torrent connection that routes 20 gb of torrent traffic through your local hub.

In fact a good compromise here might be to limit the bandwidth of repeat offenders and use software to disrupt their torrent and p2p connections. It would certainly be a better solution than yours which amounts to doing nothing (allowing piracy).

Reply Parent Score: 2

the_leander Member since:
2005-07-01



What about child porn? Should you have total privacy there as well?


Congratulations, you've just performed the copyright equivalent of Godwins Law.

You can stop posting now as you have just lost the argument.


There is no right to illegal activity, especially when using a private service.


That includes defamation sunbeam.



There's a huge difference between using a fake IP and faking someone's IP to make it look like they torrented a bunch of movies.

If someone downloads 20gb in movies your ISP can tell if 20gb of torrent packets actually went through to you during that period. IP spoofing can be used to make it look like you visited certain websites but for p2p transfer there is still data that needs to be accounted for.


TOR.




No enforcement has the same effect as having no laws.

A balance between privacy and support for content producers needs to be found or else you are allowing piracy to exist. Pirates will not come forward on their own and report themselves. Copyright laws will be widely ignored if the populace knows that the government won't enforce them. We've already seen this happen in parts of Asia.


Likewise copyright as it exists in the US and UK is a nonsense. If your laws are viewed by the general populous as being a joke or ridiculous, they are far less likely to obey.

Reply Parent Score: 3