Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 12th Mar 2010 20:42 UTC
Google It's been quiet about the Google-China dispute for a while now, but today, the silence was broken by China's minister of Industry and Information Technology, Li Yizhong, who stated that Google must either obey Chinese law or "pay the consequences", leaving no room for a compromise. With more and more western countries building their own internet filters and internet monitoring schemes, it becomes ever harder to make a strong fist against China.
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RE[6]: Comment by Vanger
by Vanger on Fri 12th Mar 2010 22:43 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by Vanger"
Vanger
Member since:
2007-11-28

and doesn't try to read possible valid points in posts - merely ignore them and look for any flaws
So, how are you going to improve life for an average Xiao?

I was astounded to hear that the recent Ukranian elections resulted in a russian-born
Nah, he was born on the territory of modern Ukraine.

Prime Minister
Nah. Prime Minister (who also competed for the chair) was Armenian-(it's pretty strange, site seems antisemitic). Yanukovich was Prime Minister in 2002-2004 and 2006-2007, not in 2010.

who can barely speak Ukranian.
Noone of them does.
Except for Canadian diaspora guests, who speak antiquated Ukrainian and express antiquated thoughts.

Perhaps you have a right to be cynical with this result.
Thank you for granting me this right. Actually, it's the lesser of evils, but I'm quite tired of constantly choosing between evils.

However, first you joke you welcome and overlord and when this is questioned you then agree it might not be a good idea?
First you say that we all eventually die, then you agree that dying is not good.
Hmm, I don't see any logical fail here.

Perhaps you need to get outside and sample whatever of spring has made it's way to the Ukraine. Life is good if you want it to be.
Thank you, my own life is pretty good. It's fragile, though.

Edited 2010-03-12 22:47 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Comment by Vanger
by StaubSaugerNZ on Fri 12th Mar 2010 23:04 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by Vanger"
StaubSaugerNZ Member since:
2007-07-13

and doesn't try to read possible valid points in posts - merely ignore them and look for any flaws
So, how are you going to improve life for an average Xiao?

I was astounded to hear that the recent Ukranian elections resulted in a russian-born
Nah, he was born on the territory of modern Ukraine.

Prime Minister
Nah. Prime Minister (who also competed for the chair) was Armenian-(it's pretty strange, site seems antisemitic). Yanukovich was Prime Minister in 2002-2004 and 2006-2007, not in 2010.

who can barely speak Ukranian.
Noone of them does.
Except for Canadian diaspora guests, who speak antiquated Ukrainian and express antiquated thoughts.

Perhaps you have a right to be cynical with this result.
Thank you for granting me this right. Actually, it's the lesser of evils, but I'm quite tired of constantly choosing between evils.

However, first you joke you welcome and overlord and when this is questioned you then agree it might not be a good idea?
First you say that we all eventually die, then you agree that dying is not good.
Hmm, I don't see any logical fail here.

Perhaps you need to get outside and sample whatever of spring has made it's way to the Ukraine. Life is good if you want it to be.
Thank you, my own life is pretty good. It's fragile, though.


Your new Prime Minister is Azarov, yes? born in Kaluga.
Your President is Yanukovych, but I wasn't talking about him.


> So, how are you going to improve life for an average Xiao?

I cannot do this. They must do it themselves. All I can do is try is make them think about the absurdities and lies they tell others. Then they can have a good think about what they really want to do with their country. I bet you they don't think being ruled by a corrupt elite is a good idea and maybe hiding the information of the corruption isn't such a good idea only.

> First you say that we all eventually die, then you agree that dying is not good.

When did I say this? I pointed out the Holodomor as a consequence of bad decisions made by others, and that perhaps it is not always good to let others make decisions for you (when you had joked about welcoming the overlordship of the Chinese). But to make good decisions yourself you need good information - something you will never have when the censorship is so heavy on important topics (not the trivial topics, like adult content etc).

I hope to clarify my statements, in case they're being lost in translation.

I get your sarcasm about permission - and your insinuation that the Decadent Imperious West is telling you (and China) what to do. That was not my intent - it was instead to point out that
* censorship is bad
* there are many fallacies used to defend censorship, but they are not valid defences,
* I am asking for valid arguments as to why censorship should be retained in China
* letting people decide for you is bad (I'm not deciding what to do, just saying better information should be available for the Chinese to make their own decision)

what I wasn't trying to do was:
* directly dictate what the Chinese (or you) should do
* go off on a tangent about the Ukraine and the stalemate caused by the tensions between the native Ukranians and Russian Ukranians like yourself (there, I finally said it, but I was trying to avoid that subject).

May I ask the question as to what you are doing for the average Xiao, apart from defending censorship, and sniping at those who might suggest that no good reasons for the high level of censorship in China have yet been presented? Nothing?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Comment by Vanger
by Vanger on Fri 12th Mar 2010 23:43 in reply to "RE[7]: Comment by Vanger"
Vanger Member since:
2007-11-28

Your new Prime Minister is Azarov, yes? born in Kaluga.
Ah, you're about him.
Yes.
Emm, so what? I don't think place of birth is of some importance here.

All I can do is try is make them think about the absurdities and lies they tell others. Then they can have a good think about what they really want to do with their country.
Oh, we have similar goals here.
Only I'm trying to tell you about your possibly well-intended absurdities.

I bet you they don't think being ruled by a corrupt elite is a good idea and maybe hiding the information of the corruption isn't such a good idea only.
You see, elite is always corrupted. In any country.
Chinese elite develops their country, not devours it. It is good enough for me.

perhaps it is not always good to let others make decisions for you
Anarchy does not work well.
Self-surgeoning does not work well too.
I think that each and every citizen awareness of the state goals and needs is too far-fetched to pursue it at the moment.

and your insinuation that the Decadent Imperious West is telling you (and China) what to do
Emm, what?
It bothers me when something is declared by democratic forces(tm) as democratic and therefore good and everything that opposes it as undemocratic and therefore bad and with no right to exist - but I don't get it personal - people are just making their business that way.

I am asking for valid arguments as to why censorship should be retained in China
Because Chinese government was fscking scared by USSR collapse and prefers tight control. This reason would look reasonable for me if I were on their place.
Its their place, they are legitimate there and they do make the laws, that's kinda all.

what you are doing for the average Xiao
Nothing.
I don't care.
I thought you do.

apart from defending censorship
I'm not defending it.
It looks like we all will be in the same censorship boat, so whole argument looks to me like blind is teaching the cripple, where should he go.

and sniping at those who might suggest that no good reasons for the high level of censorship in China have yet been presented?
Emm, who are you?
Concerned Women of America?

Reply Parent Score: 1