Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 29th Apr 2010 16:59 UTC
Editorial Holier-than-thou, an adjective, meaning "marked by an air of superior piety or morality". Everybody has moments in their life where they get into a "holier-than-thou" attitude, and I think Steve Jobs' open letter regarding Adobe, and Flash in particular, really fits the bill. There are three specific points I want to address to illustrate just how holier-than-thou, hypocritical, and misleading this letter really is.
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Comment by macUser
by macUser on Thu 29th Apr 2010 19:37 UTC
macUser
Member since:
2006-12-15

You either want open standards web or you don't. It's a bit hypocritical to constantly push open standards and then glom on to Adobe because of a vendetta against Apple.

Flash is done. Whether you like or dislike Apple the future is HTML5, CSS3 and javascript. That is the road to take. Apple is on it. Adobe with Flash is not.

Adobe can prop Flash up as long as they want but ultimately the technology is dead.

Edited 2010-04-29 19:39 UTC

Reply Score: -2

RE: Comment by macUser
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 29th Apr 2010 19:46 in reply to "Comment by macUser"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You either want open standards web or you don't. It's a bit hypocritical to constantly push open standards and then glom on to Adobe because of a vendetta against Apple.

Flash is done. Whether you like or dislike Apple the future is HTML5, CSS3 and javascript. That is the road to take. Apple is on it. Adobe with Flash is not.

Adobe can prop Flash up as long as they want but ultimately the technology is dead.


*woosh*

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by macUser
by macUser on Thu 29th Apr 2010 20:04 in reply to "RE: Comment by macUser"
macUser Member since:
2006-12-15

"You either want open standards web or you don't. It's a bit hypocritical to constantly push open standards and then glom on to Adobe because of a vendetta against Apple.

Flash is done. Whether you like or dislike Apple the future is HTML5, CSS3 and javascript. That is the road to take. Apple is on it. Adobe with Flash is not.

Adobe can prop Flash up as long as they want but ultimately the technology is dead.


*woosh*
"

Whose ego is larger? Thom's or Jobs'?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by macUser
by wargum on Thu 29th Apr 2010 20:07 in reply to "Comment by macUser"
wargum Member since:
2006-12-15

You either want open standards web or you don't.

Apple's supportive nature for H.264 must be an illusion, then. Because it's not an open standard. You just can't be against Flash because it's proprietary and support H.264 with a sane mind. You either propose a web that's fully open or you opt for choice.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by macUser
by macUser on Thu 29th Apr 2010 20:33 in reply to "RE: Comment by macUser"
macUser Member since:
2006-12-15

"You either want open standards web or you don't.

Apple's supportive nature for H.264 must be an illusion, then. Because it's not an open standard. You just can't be against Flash because it's proprietary and support H.264 with a sane mind. You either propose a web that's fully open or you opt for choice.
"

I can't quite say that I am for or against H.264. Because things like video codecs are always going to change. But you are right... An open standard for video should be supported by Apple.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by macUser
by apoclypse on Thu 29th Apr 2010 20:58 in reply to "RE: Comment by macUser"
apoclypse Member since:
2007-02-17

Here is my thing. People deride Apple for supporting h.264 like they are the only ones who are pushing it, which is not true. Google had no issues moving all of Youtube over to h.264. Even Adobe uses h.264. In-fact most video that use flash are encoded in h.264. Apple just wants to take the middle man out, especially when that middle man happens to run like crap and is lazy.

The fact of the matter is that at this time there are no real alternatives to h.264 that are even remotely in the same quality spectrum. Ogg has too many issues and has been around for years before they even got their asses in gear. Will it be better in the future , maybe but Apple has been using h.264 for years and Ogg wasn't ready, other manufacturers are supporting the codec and have been able to hardware decode it for years as well. All this talk about h.264 but here are no alternatives. As much as you hate h.264 the fact of the matter is that its a spec that can be implemented by anyone in varying degrees and that makes it far more open that Flash which has only one company behind it, with one real implementation. How well they implement the runtime is solely up to them. Meanhwhile the best h.264 encoder on the market is an opensource one that anyone can freely download and use and that even most who use flash as the container format use to encode their videos.

For Thom to call Apple hypocrites because they back h.264 is disingenuous, naive and/or just shows plain ignorance on his part. As patent encumbered as the codec is its still far more open that Flash in every respect because it can be implemented anywhere by anyone, can you say the same for Flash? Patent encumbered doesn't mean closed, having to pay a license doesn't mean closed, it means you have to pay. The only real difference between using flash for video instead of HTML5 is that Adobe has already payed the license for h.264 for you. Half the world has already declared that h.264 is the codec for the internet age. Why use Flash when your video card and decode it directly. There is no difference, the majority have already declared it the winner. So Apple should just go with an inferior product that doesn't have hardware support and is not heavily used? Pray tell how was Apple supposed to do this 3 years ago when the iphone was released? How good is Google's support for hardware accelerated Ogg on Android?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by macUser
by nt_jerkface on Thu 29th Apr 2010 20:14 in reply to "Comment by macUser"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


Flash is done. Whether you like or dislike Apple the future is HTML5, CSS3 and javascript. That is the road to take. Apple is on it. Adobe with Flash is not.

Adobe can prop Flash up as long as they want but ultimately the technology is dead.


They don't have to prop up Flash, Google will do that for them. And all those Flash game designers are not going to line up to build games in javascript with a text editor.

Flash is just going to get better with future iterations and 10.1 is already a big improvement:
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_s...

I personally don't like Flash but I also know that it would take a much stronger alliance to dislodge it. At some point it will be apparent to everyone that Jobs is just blocking Flash because it would cut into iTunes revenue.

Thom is right that it's a total joke for Jobs to be self-righteous and praise open technologies. He should have focused on security or another believable reason. What a freaking joke.

Did he even need to explain himself? Flash doesn't exactly have a flourishing fanbase. He could have just stated that he isn't including Flash because he doesn't want to support it and that would have been enough of an explanation.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by macUser
by macUser on Thu 29th Apr 2010 21:09 in reply to "RE: Comment by macUser"
macUser Member since:
2006-12-15

"
Flash is done. Whether you like or dislike Apple the future is HTML5, CSS3 and javascript. That is the road to take. Apple is on it. Adobe with Flash is not.

Adobe can prop Flash up as long as they want but ultimately the technology is dead.


They don't have to prop up Flash, Google will do that for them. And all those Flash game designers are not going to line up to build games in javascript with a text editor.

Flash is just going to get better with future iterations and 10.1 is already a big improvement:
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_s...

I personally don't like Flash but I also know that it would take a much stronger alliance to dislodge it. At some point it will be apparent to everyone that Jobs is just blocking Flash because it would cut into iTunes revenue.

Thom is right that it's a total joke for Jobs to be self-righteous and praise open technologies. He should have focused on security or another believable reason. What a freaking joke.

Did he even need to explain himself? Flash doesn't exactly have a flourishing fanbase. He could have just stated that he isn't including Flash because he doesn't want to support it and that would have been enough of an explanation.
"

They're all hypocrites so it's rather moot to me. Apple definitely took too long to migrate the Finder, but at the same time the real issue is web standards.

Adobe has some great talent and could easily develop an IDE... Heck they own Dreamweaver don't they? You're right Google will prop Flash up for Adobe and we will applaud them for keeping us shackled to a proprietary format while we scream at Apple for H.264. The irony is delicious. None of these companies really stand up to scrutiny do they?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by macUser
by boulabiar on Thu 29th Apr 2010 20:16 in reply to "Comment by macUser"
boulabiar Member since:
2009-04-18

You all missed out the most interesting part in Jobs words.

"Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future"
=> A new Apple IDE coming for html5,css,JS ??

Not all people like coding everything from ZERO, people using Flash have a great IDE with many feature.
Maybe we will see Apple providing a similar tool for that generating HTML5 and Javascript+CSS code.

It is realy unbelievable that we still don't have any IDE with easy interface that generate HTML5 code.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by macUser
by macUser on Thu 29th Apr 2010 20:38 in reply to "RE: Comment by macUser"
macUser Member since:
2006-12-15

You all missed out the most interesting part in Jobs words.

"Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future"
=> A new Apple IDE coming for html5,css,JS ??

Not all people like coding everything from ZERO, people using Flash have a great IDE with many feature.
Maybe we will see Apple providing a similar tool for that generating HTML5 and Javascript+CSS code.

It is realy unbelievable that we still don't have any IDE with easy interface that generate HTML5 code.


Apple already has an IDE, it's called xcode. Lost in all of this is that compelling applications can be created for the iphone, itouch, ipad, etc with only html, css and javascript. There is no need for the app store and your app can't get rejected by Apple.

Distribution is just a web server away and they will even continue to function offline.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by macUser
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Apr 2010 18:37 in reply to "Comment by macUser"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Ultimately all technology is dead so what's your point?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by macUser
by Soulbender on Sat 1st May 2010 15:20 in reply to "Comment by macUser"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

You either want open standards web or you don't.

Apple obviously don't.

That is the road to take. Apple is on it. Adobe with Flash is not.


Is that like how Apple is on the wrong road with video codecs?

Reply Parent Score: 3