Linked by Kaj de Vos on Tue 8th Jun 2010 22:07 UTC
Syllable, AtheOS

The Syllable project is pleased to announce that the reports of its death have been greatly exaggerated, and that the new version 0.4 of Syllable Server has been released. This release focuses on maturing existing functionality, improving security, ongoing system restructuring, and making the system a suitable base for third-party package managers. Although the project admits it hasn't brought its unicorn factory online yet, extensive work was done on the nitty-gritty, so the full change log is quite long.

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RE[5]: Cool, I guess...
by tails92 on Wed 9th Jun 2010 13:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Cool, I guess..."
tails92
Member since:
2007-10-07

Kaj-De-Vos, cipri is right, and calling him a troll is wrong. I stopped caring about Syllable (which I installed twice just for kicks) after the moment they announced Syllable Server based on a Linux kernel. That stabbed the project badly, as people who wanted to develop on Syllable simply felt it wasn't worth it, and people who wanted a Linux-kernel based server OS simply used something else more familiar, conventional and supported.

It does no good for an aspiring operating system to split in two like Win9x and WinNT. It just drains very needed resources. A server is just a computer which runs server programs on a normal operating system, it is not, I repeat not, anything special which requires an ad-hoc operating system. And people who wanted to make Syllable more responsible were put off due to the Server version (the "Desktop" kernel just isn't worth it for server usage, they understood).

AtheOS was pretty good already back in the day and Syllable did not need much to become a good operating system for day-to-day use.

It is sad that Vanders and the other developers on board have never been able to understand this simple fact. As much as one may think other operating systems are dead, they have more potential than your Syllable project which unlikely, if ever, will attract much attention again.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Cool, I guess...
by Kaj-de-Vos on Wed 9th Jun 2010 13:35 in reply to "RE[5]: Cool, I guess..."
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

It is telling that you say you dropped Syllable the moment we announced Syllable Server. This means you never gave it a chance, you never evaluated it. You just made an emotional decision based on the notion "Linux".

We, on the other hand, need to actually develop Syllable, and we can't do that based on emotional decisions. The machine, the hardware and the software, is forcing us to do the things that work. To the machine, "Linux" is just a byte array string in memory, if even that. Already almost half a decade ago I once did a line count on the Syllable source code, for fun. I knew the basic metrics of the system, but I was still surprised to find that our code was only four percent of the total that went into a system build. Of that four percent, most was drivers ported from the Linux kernel, XFree86, DirectFB and BeOS, so our own modifications comprised only a small portion of it. So our own code was probably less than one percent of the total code out of which Syllable Desktop was built. That was years ago, and we have gone on porting more drivers and libraries, so it will be even less now.

So the system you dumped so haphazardly was actually 99% a Linux distro, only without "Linux". Like I was surprised at how large this factor actually is, I have also been surprised at how unwilling people who consider themselves knowledgeable on the subject are to believe this - but that doesn't make it less true.

This has actually always been the strongest point of AtheOS and then Syllable Desktop: the extent to which it is able to use existing code. Without this ability, the project wouldn't have had a glimmer of a hope for relevance in this day and age, and people wouldn't be winding themselves up about it now.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: Cool, I guess...
by sorpigal on Wed 9th Jun 2010 14:22 in reply to "RE[5]: Cool, I guess..."
sorpigal Member since:
2005-11-02

Syllable server is a great idea that's hindered by being too unambitious.

Creating a new desktop OS is fiendishly hard work and it's all the harder to try and support all of the devices you'll need to support. Syllable Server shows a great way forward: Just slide the Linux kernel in underneath. Yeah it's got all kinds of problems, but if you're really interested in building a nice desktop OS the kernel is the last thing you should be worrying about.

Despite all of the effort the *nix desktop is stillborn even today. Most Linux distributions are 99% the same and share all kinds of problems. I think that there might be a welcoming user base if a Linux-based system that is radically different were introduced. Look at android: The Linux kernel plus stacks of stuff that make it what it is. Who cares about the kernel? Not desktop users! Just build all of your nice things on top of Linux, get stability and hardware support for free, take the FOSS desktop world by storm.

Or just make a crappy server OS no one cares about.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Cool, I guess...
by Neolander on Wed 9th Jun 2010 14:32 in reply to "RE[6]: Cool, I guess..."
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Creating a new desktop OS is fiendishly hard work and it's all the harder to try and support all of the devices you'll need to support. Syllable Server shows a great way forward: Just slide the Linux kernel in underneath. Yeah it's got all kinds of problems, but if you're really interested in building a nice desktop OS the kernel is the last thing you should be worrying about.

Questionable. Compare Haiku with modern linux distros in terms of performance and API coherence. Linux has never been made for desktop use, and you can feel that in almost all low-level components of a desktop Linux system...

Plus the components of a desktop Linux system are too much tied together. Try to code a X replacement that does not work like X and is compatible with Nvidia's driver, as an example : I wish you good luck.

Despite all of the effort the *nix desktop is stillborn even today. Most Linux distributions are 99% the same and share all kinds of problems. I think that there might be a welcoming user base if a Linux-based system that is radically different were introduced. Look at android: The Linux kernel plus stacks of stuff that make it what it is. Who cares about the kernel? Not desktop users! Just build all of your nice things on top of Linux, get stability and hardware support for free, take the FOSS desktop world by storm.

Such a thing does exist, it's called Pardus Linux and I use it at home. It's a very stable Linux distro with excellent hardware support, an acceptable repository, flawless KDE4 integration, and basically almost everything a desktop Linux user could wish for, combined with some unique tools where the standard Linux tools fail to meet basic desktop user's needs. However, the storm still remains to be seen...

Edited 2010-06-09 14:43 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Cool, I guess...
by Kaj-de-Vos on Wed 9th Jun 2010 15:42 in reply to "RE[6]: Cool, I guess..."
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

I advise you to read the introduction documentation on our web site:

http://web.syllable.org/pages/about.html

You're sort of on the right track, but you're confused. You're like contracting a builder to build a house, and then going to the site after a month, and telling the workers: "The foundation you're laying there is too unambitious. You know what, the foundation is unimportant. Actually, the foundation is just hindering you. Go on, build the house right away already. I don't believe you're building a house if I can't see a house."

Reply Parent Score: 2