Linked by lopisaur on Fri 25th Jun 2010 22:21 UTC
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Based upon a recent email to the X.Org developers' mailing list, Canonical is nearing the point of one of their goals for Ubuntu 10.10 of a rootless X Server, or being able to run the X.Org Server without root privileges.
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RE: Big deal...
by ggeldenhuys on Sat 26th Jun 2010 09:03 UTC in reply to "Big deal..."
ggeldenhuys
Member since:
2006-11-13

Replacing X with something new would be very welcomed by me. I'm a GUI toolkit and desktop application developer. X has the worst performance of the big three (OSX, Windows, X) - even a relatively new project like Haiku seems to have better graphics performance than X.

I hope one of the big players like IBM could start such a project. Many individual developers have tried, but those projects very quickly get discarded.

As for the "wonderful" remote/networking support built into X - I don't see that as relevant any more. That was designed for mono terminal displays of 20+ year ago. VNC, RDP and a host of others all manage the same thing (in color) with much better performance!

Apple had the right idea with OSX, by writing their own GUI - it's time the rest of the *nix world wakes up to that fact - X11 sucks in performance.

PS:
I run Linux at work and home, as my only development platform. Windows only lives in VM session on my systems. So please don't take this up as a rant/flamewar request - it's purely my observation of X in my day-to-day work.

Edited 2010-06-26 09:12 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Big deal...
by steogede2 on Sat 26th Jun 2010 09:40 in reply to "RE: Big deal..."
steogede2 Member since:
2007-08-17

Replacing X with something new would be very welcomed by me. I'm a GUI toolkit and desktop application developer. X has the worst performance of the big three (OSX, Windows, X)


X? So are you referring to all X11 implementations, or a particular one out of: X.org, Accelerated-X, Hummingbird eXceed, Reflections X, Cygwin/X, ...

Edited 2010-06-26 09:41 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Big deal...
by Toad on Sat 26th Jun 2010 09:43 in reply to "RE: Big deal..."
Toad Member since:
2005-11-27

Replacing X with something new would be very welcomed by me. I'm a GUI toolkit and desktop application developer. X has the worst performance of the big three (OSX, Windows, X) - even a relatively new project like Haiku seems to have better graphics performance than X.

I hope one of the big players like IBM could start such a project. Many individual developers have tried, but those projects very quickly get discarded.


An Redhat X employee is developing an lightweight alternative - Wayland http://groups.google.com/group/wayland-display-server

The good news is that he has knowledge about x, because he works with it, whats good and what's bad. And more, with his Stack its possible to run an X-server on top for application that is dependent on X. More good news is that Wayland uses the new driver infrastructure that is also used by X. These drivers exist as I understood for ATI and Nvidia, but sadly not for Intel.

I think there are already proof of concept integration with GTK+ running on top of Wayland.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Big deal...
by Zifre on Sat 26th Jun 2010 14:29 in reply to "RE[2]: Big deal..."
Zifre Member since:
2009-10-04

The good news is that he has knowledge about x, because he works with it, whats good and what's bad.

I'm just going to say that I think Wayland also has some design issues. The main one is pushing too much windows management into the clients. The plan is that things like window moving and even wobbly windows would be implemented in the client. To me this is a clear layering violation. It also makes it way harder to do things like tiling window managers.

Personally, I am working on my own windowing system like Wayland, mainly as a proof of concept for how I think window management and input should be done. I think Wayland has a much greater chance of actually becoming the standard Linux windowing system though.

And more, with his Stack its possible to run an X-server on top for application that is dependent on X.

That's possible, but you would actually almost never do that. Almost all apps use Gtk+ or Qt, which would simply be ported to run on Wayland. If for some reason that doesn't work, you would run a rootless X server like Xming for Windows, so that the apps would properly integrate with the Wayland desktop, much like X11 on Mac OS X. (Note that this article really should not say "rootless", because that has a very different meaning in X.)

These drivers exist as I understood for ATI and Nvidia, but sadly not for Intel.

Nope, you've got that completely backwards. The drivers exist for Intel. ATI would work with a few small patches. NVIDIA's binary drivers will probably never work with it, but the Nouveau drivers would also work with a few small patches.

I think there are already proof of concept integration with GTK+ running on top of Wayland.

Nope. That's also backwards. I think Qt is much closer to being able to run on Wayland (especially with acceleration) than Gtk+ is.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Big deal...
by ggeldenhuys on Tue 29th Jun 2010 19:47 in reply to "RE[2]: Big deal..."
ggeldenhuys Member since:
2006-11-13

An Redhat X employee is developing an lightweight alternative - Wayland http://groups.google.com/group/wayland-display-server

I haven't heard of that one yet, but there are a few X-replacement prototypes available on the net. Y being one of them (very unoriginal name though <smile>). Some have put a lot of research in them.

The major obstacle is obviously convincing GTK and KDE (or Qt rather) to support the new windowing system. That way existing GTK and KDE and Qt apps should be able to move with relative ease.

The other question raised is should the replacement windowing system include a "default" widgetset as well.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Big deal...
by siride on Sat 26th Jun 2010 17:30 in reply to "RE: Big deal..."
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

X11 performance for me is fine with good drivers. Most people are really just pissed about slow drivers. X itself is just fine, performance-wise. If drivers properly accelerated all the things they should, I bet the complaints about X being slow would go away overnight.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Big deal...
by werpu on Sat 26th Jun 2010 19:21 in reply to "RE: Big deal..."
werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

Actually even the remoting of X is protocolwise lousy, while it scaled perfectly for a few lines widgets like the Athena widget, it falls flat on its face with complex modern UIs trafficwise. You need protocol hacks to get the dataload down.

People have been saying that X sucks for 10 years and I agree it might be the time to either let it rest or make a huge overhaul into X12 instead of doctoring around on X11.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Big deal...
by siride on Sun 27th Jun 2010 00:15 in reply to "RE[2]: Big deal..."
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

The toolkits apparently make very bad use of the protocol, but the biggest culprit is Xlib. XCB supposedly improves network performance considerably, but no toolkits use it as of yet.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Big deal...
by spiderman on Mon 28th Jun 2010 05:53 in reply to "RE: Big deal..."
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Replacing X with something new would be very welcomed by me. I'm a GUI toolkit and desktop application developer. X has the worst performance of the big three (OSX, Windows, X) - even a relatively new project like Haiku seems to have better graphics performance than X.

Use the frame buffer then. The rest of us are happy with X.org. GTK works FB, your toolkit should be able to do it to.

I hope one of the big players like IBM could start such a project. Many individual developers have tried, but those projects very quickly get discarded.
The frame buffer is well supported by linux. It is just that all applications are running on X because it is much better.

As for the "wonderful" remote/networking support built into X - I don't see that as relevant any more. That was designed for mono terminal displays of 20+ year ago. VNC, RDP and a host of others all manage the same thing (in color) with much better performance!
Not even close. VNC is a hack and will always be a hack. It runs on the server, which means the server has all the bloat and security holes. It runs at fixed resolution and you can only run a full desktop, not a single window. use X with FreeNX just to see how much VNC and RDP suck.

Apple had the right idea with OSX, by writing their own GUI - it's time the rest of the *nix world wakes up to that fact - X11 sucks in performance.
And who run MacOS X on a server?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Big deal...
by fithisux on Mon 28th Jun 2010 08:39 in reply to "RE: Big deal..."
fithisux Member since:
2006-01-22

OpenWF can be used. Syllable has also a GPL solution for end users. The only problem I see is the lack of standardized GPU acces method (like USB mass storage)

Edited 2010-06-28 08:43 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2