Linked by lopisaur on Fri 25th Jun 2010 22:21 UTC
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Based upon a recent email to the X.Org developers' mailing list, Canonical is nearing the point of one of their goals for Ubuntu 10.10 of a rootless X Server, or being able to run the X.Org Server without root privileges.
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RE[6]: Big deal...
by vivainio on Sat 26th Jun 2010 15:32 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Big deal..."
vivainio
Member since:
2008-12-26

If I remember correctly, these window managers only work with 3D acceleration turned on--what happens if you use 2D-only drivers?

If you don't want to use proper drivers, you don't really have the right to complain that things don't work well for you.


And secondly, doesn't that only cover window moving and resizing? What about the contents of the windows?

Classical problem with X was that stuff moving over your window caused bad artifacts (typically leaving a blank area until repaint was done). This doesn't really happen anymore. I don't know what you mean by problems with contents of the windows, everything seems to work fine for me.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[7]: Big deal...
by Moochman on Sat 26th Jun 2010 16:31 in reply to "RE[6]: Big deal..."
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't know what you mean by problems with contents of the windows, everything seems to work fine for me.


I mean artifacts that are very short-lived but noticeable, widgets that change their state not all at once, but in bits and pieces... like the outline of a drop-down box remaining shortly after the box itself disappears... window contents when resizing not being refreshed in real-time, but instead getting big black areas prior to the full refresh... just generally anything that requires large-ish refreshes seems to happen in jerks or discrete steps rather than smoothly. Sure it may seem "minor", but compared to Windows and Mac it is noticeably less polished. It's just like Linux font rendering used to be: "fine" but noticeably inferior.... I believe this is what ggeldenhuys is referring to below as X's "poor performance" in comparison to the other platforms.

Edited 2010-06-26 16:39 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Big deal...
by Elv13 on Sat 26th Jun 2010 16:58 in reply to "RE[7]: Big deal..."
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

This should not happen when compositing is on, as the lower layer does not need to be drawed again. See 2D without compositing as one single image. If you alter (with a combobox) one part, then what was under it does not exist anymore, so it need to be recreated after the alteration (combobox) is gone.

With compositing, it is a stack. The image you see is composed of multiple layers, each being on top, or not of an other. They are separated and does not need to each other. If you remove a layer (your combobox), then it will just show a lower layer, no need to as the widget to replain itself (that is slow).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Big deal...
by siride on Sat 26th Jun 2010 17:24 in reply to "RE[7]: Big deal..."
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

This has nothing to do with X and everything to do with either bad drivers or badly written apps. If you are getting actual glitches (and not just "not quite fast enough" redraws of complicated windows) then it's definitely not an X problem. Windows apps have this too, although since Windows now has compositing, it's not present any more unless you switch to classic mode.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Big deal...
by UltraZelda64 on Sun 27th Jun 2010 08:43 in reply to "RE[6]: Big deal..."
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

"If I remember correctly, these window managers only work with 3D acceleration turned on--what happens if you use 2D-only drivers?

If you don't want to use proper drivers, you don't really have the right to complain that things don't work well for you.
"

What if it's running on decade-plus old hardware that doesn't have a worthy GPU for processing 3D? Maybe the device vender no longer even supports that particular chip, which is highly likely; nVidia seems to have gone through three or four different, incompatible driver generations in the time I've owned this nearly decade-old machine (though its original GeForce2 Ultra has long been replaced). The original GF2:U is now in another machine (currently running Windows and not in my possession, and if I were to install Linux or BSD on it, I would be at least three driver generations behind. No telling whether the drivers would even *work* on modern systems/kernels.)

Or what if using "proper drivers" goes against your wishes, such as using third-party kernel blobs and drivers? Hell, for that matter, what IS a proper driver--the crap nVidia and ATI put out, or something that is more well-designed to fitting into the system as a whole, both in terms of design and philosophy (open source)? Or just the "appropriate driver to get the job done" which, depending on how a person looks at it, could really be either? And if the binary drivers the manufacturers put out are the "proper drivers," then wouldn't that make Windows the "proper OS?"

Really, it sounds like you're saying something along the lines of, "if you don't like the way things are and how the GPU companies are restricting the use of their hardware through drivers, even if you run (or wish to run) a fully open system--you have no right to complain. Either use the blobs if possible, or shut up. Or upgrade to a newer model graphics card. And oh, and if those blobs are incompatible with your particular hardware and/or OS, well... tough luck. Enjoy the glitches."

Edited 2010-06-27 08:48 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Big deal...
by vivainio on Sun 27th Jun 2010 20:17 in reply to "RE[7]: Big deal..."
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

Really, it sounds like you're saying something along the lines of, "if you don't like the way things are and how the GPU companies are restricting the use of their hardware through drivers, even if you run (or wish to run) a fully open system--you have no right to complain. Either use the blobs if possible, or shut up. Or upgrade to a newer model graphics card. And oh, and if those blobs are incompatible with your particular hardware and/or OS, well... tough luck. Enjoy the glitches."


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If you insist on taking the less supported path, adjust your expectations. OTOH, I've never been seriously bothered by these artifacts, so the issue seems overblown.

As for ethical reasoning - choose your battles. NVIDIA has been able to provide the best drivers there are for Linux and have good reasons for keeping them closed; I have no problem supporting them for that. I specifically chose my laptop based on the fact that it has an nvidia card.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Big deal...
by Delgarde on Sun 27th Jun 2010 21:26 in reply to "RE[7]: Big deal..."
Delgarde Member since:
2008-08-19

What if it's running on decade-plus old hardware that doesn't have a worthy GPU for processing 3D?


If you're running on decade-old hardware, are you surprised to get 1990's performance? Surprised that you can't get the benefit of new work being done in 2010?

Reply Parent Score: 2