Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 10th Aug 2010 22:00 UTC, submitted by JRepin
KDE KDE today celebrates its semi-annual release event, releasing new versions of the Plasma Desktop and Netbook workspaces, the KDE Development Platform and a large number of applications available in their 4.5.0 versions. In this release, the KDE team focused on stability and completeness of the desktop experience.
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RE[3]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by lemur2 on Wed 11th Aug 2010 02:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

Unfortunately, while the way that they released KDE 4 ultimately resulted in a very solid DE, it also seems to have created a serious stigma for the project. I would love it if folks would just look at KDE 4 for what it is, but as with many things, it takes tons of good publicity to overcome even a small amount of bad publicity, and KDE 4.0 created more than just a small amount of bad publicity, regardless of whether it was actually good for the project from a technology standpoint to release it that they way that they did.

As any good PR-person would know, first impressions are everything. KDE4.0 was the one to give the first impressions of KDE4 to many people and that'll be almost impossible to get over until KDE5.

From technology standpoint it was perhaps a more efficient way of doing things than releasing "KDE4.0 Developer Release" first was it really that much more efficient? Wouldn't such a Developer Release have sufficed? It would atleast have reduced the number of complaints and not created such an overwhelming bad impression. I mean, I do understand why they did it the way they did, I just don't really believe it was worth it.


I have a distinct impression that the "overwhelming bad impression" you speak of was actually just a beat up. It is driven by corporate PR agendas, and not by actual people.

Think about it for a moment ... KDE 4.0 was released a couple of years ago, for no cost, and the developers said it was a development version, and they solicited user feedback with it. Getting user feedback necessarily means getting users to try it. The earlier you get user feedback incorporated into the design, the better the eventual result is.

Well, user feedback they got, and now KDE SC 4.5 is arguably the best desktop available today, bar none.

Meanwhile, what about a near-contemporary desktop system released some years ago, which cost users real money:

http://ourlan.homelinux.net/qdig/?Qwd=./KDE4_desktop&Qif=91992_vist...

Today, where is the same level of media-driven disarrangement of that?

Today, any mention of KDE 4.0 is a smear campaign, pure and simple, driven by a PR agenda. Pay no attention to it, it is ancient history. Just enjoy the best-of-breed KDE SC 4.5, and laugh at those who want to keep you away from trying it.

Edited 2010-08-11 02:32 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 5

UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

Think about it for a moment ... KDE 4.0 was released a couple of years ago, for no cost, and the developers said it was a development version, and they solicited user feedback with it. Getting user feedback necessarily means getting users to try it. The earlier you get user feedback incorporated into the design, the better the eventual result is.

It seemed to me more like KDE 4.0 was supposed to be the "next big thing," but as its release drew closer and it became obvious they couldn't get it anywhere near ready by 4.0, they backtracked and tried to claim that 4.0 will really be primarily for testing and not of release quality. Then they started saying that there's a difference between "KDE 4" and "KDE 4.0," and that it should be "ready" for general use around 4.2 or 4.3. I think it's safe to say that by 4.3, it really was just about ready, but still... the beginnings of "KDE 4" were a nightmare; slow, buggy, featureless software with very bad communication from the KDE guys.

Well, user feedback they got, and now KDE SC 4.5 is arguably the best desktop available today, bar none.

It's damn good today, I agree, but I still run into frequent graphical glitches involving the pop-up tooltips on the taskbar and the pop-up Device Notifier applet. And I strongly disagree with considering it "arguably the best" desktop environment today. That's too subjective, and if you'd try it on a machine with under 512MB of RAM, you'd quickly find that most of the alternatives (and even KDE 3) would run circles around it. I'm not completely impressed with its performance.

I like how they "stole" the Aero Snap concept from Windows 7 though; that's one thing Microsoft actually got right for once, it works great, and it just makes sense. It's one of those things that makes you think, "why didn't they think of this before?" And I'm glad to see such a feature being added to a free desktop in such a relatively short amount of time. Aero Shake is useful too, but it looks like KDE hasn't added similar functionality yet (running KDE 4.4 in openSUSE 11.3).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by mgl.branco on Thu 12th Aug 2010 12:29 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
mgl.branco Member since:
2009-07-22

It seemed to me more like KDE 4.0 was supposed to be the "next big thing,"

No. Developers design a _concept_ that could actually be the next big thing and they openly shared their ideas with the community and put themselves on action. Media took those concepts as facts, as real progress, and promised the audience the next big thing. Then a few on the media overacted. They even used mockups from kde-look branistorm section as what would be expected to look like
KDE communicated their ideas poorly, ok, but media misread and overreacted.

Then they started saying that there's a difference between "KDE 4" and "KDE 4.0," and that it should be "ready" for general use around 4.2 or 4.3.

Read devs blogs again and start reading two years before 4.0 was released. It should come clear that KDE4 was used to identify the new series and not a specific release.

Reply Parent Score: 3

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Today, any mention of KDE 4.0 is a smear campaign, pure and simple, driven by a PR agenda. Pay no attention to it, it is ancient history. Just enjoy the best-of-breed KDE SC 4.5, and laugh at those who want to keep you away from trying it.


and your constant negativity over past Windows releases is not a smear campaign, why, exactly?

Get over yourself. KDE 4.0 was a big mess, and wholly mismanaged in every possible way - from developers to communicators, they all messed up. In any self-respecting organisation it would've led to some serious soul-searching and re-evaluating of roles, responsibilities, and so on. Instead, the KDE guys just blamed everyone else - and people like you continue to do so, to this very day.

KDE4 has gotten a lot better, obviously, but that does not negate the fact that 4.0 was a turd. Just as people still talk about Windows Vista as being a mess (see any Windows 7 review, or any talk of Windows for that matter), we still talk about KDE 4.0.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Richard Dale Member since:
2005-07-22

"Today, any mention of KDE 4.0 is a smear campaign, pure and simple, driven by a PR agenda. Pay no attention to it, it is ancient history. Just enjoy the best-of-breed KDE SC 4.5, and laugh at those who want to keep you away from trying it.


and your constant negativity over past Windows releases is not a smear campaign, why, exactly?

Get over yourself. KDE 4.0 was a big mess, and wholly mismanaged in every possible way - from developers to communicators, they all messed up. In any self-respecting organisation it would've led to some serious soul-searching and re-evaluating of roles, responsibilities, and so on. Instead, the KDE guys just blamed everyone else - and people like you continue to do so, to this very day.

KDE4 has gotten a lot better, obviously, but that does not negate the fact that 4.0 was a turd. Just as people still talk about Windows Vista as being a mess (see any Windows 7 review, or any talk of Windows for that matter), we still talk about KDE 4.0.
"

I'm sorry this is just plain wrong. In terms of development, KDE 4.0 was a big success - we don't have anything to apologize or soul search about. You can tell if a development project has failed quite easily. There would have been recriminations on the public KDE mailings lists, code would have been rewritten, and the feature list reduced. That didn't happen with KDE 4.x, and you know why? Because it wasn't a failure like you say it was.

In terms of communication, yes we have clearly failed to communicate as well as we could have with people like yourself. I personally thought there were a lot of informative and interesting articles on KDE Dot News such as Troy Unrau's Pillars of KDE series. We did say quite clearly that KDE 4.0 was a developer/early adopter release. It takes two to communicate, and if the receiving party isn't listening, then there is really a lot the sender can do.

It wouldn't have been possible for KDE to 'get a lot better' as you say it has, if it had been a failure because in development terms it just wouldn't have been possible to build something as large and complex as KDE 4.5 on top of a foundation which supposedly had 'failed'.

Reply Parent Score: 12

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by lemur2 on Wed 11th Aug 2010 12:34 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

KDE4 has gotten a lot better, obviously, but that does not negate the fact that 4.0 was a turd. Just as people still talk about Windows Vista as being a mess (see any Windows 7 review, or any talk of Windows for that matter), we still talk about KDE 4.0.


This would be fair enough if it weren't for the fact that users were supposed to pay for Vista.

For the KDE developers to release an underdone KDE 4.0 for users to try is an entirely different thing to Microsoft foisting underdone Vista onto users ... ONLY because Microsoft were asking said users for money. When Vista came out it was the only thing you could buy in stores ... until users screamed "foul" and made vendors offer a "downgrade" to XP that wasn't actually "down".

The KDE developers, OTOH, kept releasing versions of KDE 3.x alongside KDE 4.0. KDE distributions such as MEPIS and PCLinuxOS have only now just started releasing the KDE 4.x series as their default desktop.

A little perspective, please, Thom.

Edited 2010-08-11 12:38 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by Beket_ on Wed 11th Aug 2010 12:50 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
Beket_ Member since:
2009-07-10

"Today, any mention of KDE 4.0 is a smear campaign, pure and simple, driven by a PR agenda. Pay no attention to it, it is ancient history. Just enjoy the best-of-breed KDE SC 4.5, and laugh at those who want to keep you away from trying it.


and your constant negativity over past Windows releases is not a smear campaign, why, exactly?

Get over yourself. KDE 4.0 was a big mess, and wholly mismanaged in every possible way - from developers to communicators, they all messed up. In any self-respecting organisation it would've led to some serious soul-searching and re-evaluating of roles, responsibilities, and so on. Instead, the KDE guys just blamed everyone else - and people like you continue to do so, to this very day.
"

Thom, this is going nowhere. When kde devs say that:

"KDE 4.0 didn't fail, and it was actually very successful",

"KDE 4.0 has been one of the most successful innovations in the last 30 years" or that,

"KDE 4.0 was a big success - we don't have anything to apologize or soul search about"

I no longer wonder why, after 2 years, it still has so many problems.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by emilsedgh on Wed 11th Aug 2010 16:16 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
emilsedgh Member since:
2007-06-21

Hi
Well, from the KDE developers point of view, releasing 4.0 in that time was the only option to keep the project running.

while many components, like plasma were so immature and unstable at the time, many applications were good enough.
And they were developed mostly by volunteers.
And KDE *has* to keep volunteers satisfied.

Imagine writing a KFoo application and it doesnt get released in ~1-2 years. You'll simply lose your motivation.


Now, the blaming parts. The people to blame are distro's. Mainly Kubuntu and Fedora.
Developers mentioned that its not for users. Distro's were too excited to jump on the hype around 'KDE4'.
Kubuntu was among the most popular kde distro's. With releasing their kde4 version, they hurt themselves and kde so badly.

But, still, the 'hate' around kde was always there. Many people hate kde without even using it. The 'version 4 sucks' is another excuse.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by mgl.branco on Thu 12th Aug 2010 12:36 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
mgl.branco Member since:
2009-07-22

Get over yourself. KDE 4.0 was a big mess, and wholly mismanaged in every possible way - from developers to communicators, they all messed up. In any self-respecting organisation it would've led to some serious soul-searching and re-evaluating of roles, responsibilities, and so on. Instead, the KDE guys just blamed everyone else - and people like you continue to do so, to this very day.

I don't know the in and outs of the community, but I believe they took many changes after they analysed the kde 4.0 thing. I mean,promo team, renaming thing...

KDE4 has gotten a lot better, obviously, but that does not negate the fact that 4.0 was a turd. Just as people still talk about Windows Vista as being a mess (see any Windows 7 review, or any talk of Windows for that matter), we still talk about KDE 4.0.

OK. And with don't all get over this, as you say, and forget about KDE 4.0 an Vista and judge KDE an Win based on their actual releases Win7 and 4.5?. If you so many many criticisms are no longer valid.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by Luminair on Thu 12th Aug 2010 15:36 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

all true

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by mart on Wed 11th Aug 2010 09:06 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
mart Member since:
2005-11-17

I have a distinct impression that the "overwhelming bad impression" you speak of was actually just a beat up. It is driven by corporate PR agendas, and not by actual people.


It was an hard decision but turned out to be the right one. Why the right one if there are still people that are talking about how bad the release was?

Because the number of our developers literally skyrocketed since then. It sparkled an interest i did never seen before by potential contributors.

Now, I understand users want a real finished product, but unfortunately is not how opensource can work or ever worked: release early, release often. WE don't have closed betas or millions of investment. The only big resource we have is crowdsourcing, get as much people as possible to try it and get as much people as possible to *get involved*.

There were some things that were screw up for sure, one was the communication with distributions that made it the /default/ KDE installation too early, and overall we didn't communicate enough that was for developers. KDE 4.0 developer edition? perhaps could have worked, i don't know.

But a release *had* to be done, and for our developer community turned out that was really, really healty.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by Aragorn992 on Wed 11th Aug 2010 13:00 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
Aragorn992 Member since:
2007-05-27

It was an hard decision but turned out to be the right one. Why the right one if there are still people that are talking about how bad the release was?

Because the number of our developers literally skyrocketed since then. It sparkled an interest i did never seen before by potential contributors.

Now, I understand users want a real finished product, but unfortunately is not how opensource can work or ever worked: release early, release often. WE don't have closed betas or millions of investment. The only big resource we have is crowdsourcing, get as much people as possible to try it and get as much people as possible to *get involved*.

There were some things that were screw up for sure, one was the communication with distributions that made it the /default/ KDE installation too early, and overall we didn't communicate enough that was for developers. KDE 4.0 developer edition? perhaps could have worked, i don't know.

But a release *had* to be done, and for our developer community turned out that was really, really healty.


It's not the release itself. It's the fact it was labelled as "4.0". Simply calling it "4.0 beta" (and that's being generous given the amount of serious bugs) would have solved all of these problems.

Labelling it as "4.0 beta" would also not prevent the release early, release often strategy. It is still released!

What you're implying is it is ok to decieve people by saying its a "4.0" release with no beta, etc in order to get more exposure and therefore developers. That's questionable.

Edited 2010-08-11 13:01 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by tyrione on Wed 11th Aug 2010 09:42 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

You're on crack if you think KDE 4.5 [I'm typing on 4.4.5] is the best Desktop environment, bar none.

Not even close.

Reply Parent Score: -1

Fettarme H-Milch Member since:
2010-02-16

Stop insulting other people just because they don't share your vision of "the perfect desktop".
Nobody here is hindering you to use a Mac or whatever you like best.
Just use it and shut up.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by lemur2 on Wed 11th Aug 2010 12:48 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

You're on crack if you think KDE 4.5 [I'm typing on 4.4.5] is the best Desktop environment, bar none.

Not even close.


http://www.osnews.com/permalink?436155

Name any desktop software collection (a single, integrated collection) that gets close to that functionality.

Not one. Not even close.

http://www.osnews.com/permalink?436160

Is KDE still bloatware? I mean 3.5GB for a complete office suite, information manager suite file manager, large library of games, mathematical tools, internet suite, toys, sophisticated admin utilities, education utilities, media players, encoders, editors, viewers and a development platform is absolutely absurd! I mean, Windows 7 manages to pack in nearly a sixth of those things in only 12GB!


Spot on. Precisely so.

Minor nitpick ... you think Windows 7 achieves a whole, entire sixth of the KDE Software Collection? Really? That much, hey? This is my "I doubt it" face.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by Zifre on Wed 11th Aug 2010 12:56 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
Zifre Member since:
2009-10-04

You're on crack if you think KDE 4.5 [I'm typing on 4.4.5] is the best Desktop environment, bar none.

And you're on crack if you think that your opinion is fact because you say it is. It's quite obviously a preference. Some people like KDE. Some people like Windows. And some people like Mac OS X.

Being a jerk is not the best way to encourage people to use your preferred desktop...

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: Comment by mtzmtulivu
by diegoviola on Wed 11th Aug 2010 21:49 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by mtzmtulivu"
diegoviola Member since:
2006-08-15

You're on crack if you think KDE 4.5 [I'm typing on 4.4.5] is the best Desktop environment, bar none.

Not even close.


You are the biggest douche I know in OSNews.

Reply Parent Score: 5