Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 21st Oct 2010 09:13 UTC
Mac OS X After the news that the new MacBook Airs do not ship with Flash pre-installed (which is news considering Flash has been part of Mac OS X for a very long time), we now have news that Apple is also taking what appears to be the first steps towards removing Apple's own Java runtime from Mac OS X.
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RE: native GUI
by kaiwai on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:04 UTC in reply to "native GUI"
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

last time I tested a Java Application on OS X -- if I remember correctly it was 10.1 -- the Java default Metal look & feel was the only option. Well, I admit, to me it looked somehow strange on the OS X desktop ;-)

But the actual Windows and GTK+ (Gnome) look&feel options -- to me -- look and feel native.

pica


Take JEdit as one example - all the short cuts are set to ctrl instead of command on the Apple Mac; that is one example of why multiplatform applications using Java royally suck. There are numerous other examples, Netbeans, Limewire, Eclipse etc. There is always some quirk that makes it stand out like a sore thumb because at the end of the day if you try to be everything to everyone then you'll fail to satisfying anyone.

Reply Parent Score: 6

What about vi ...
by pica on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:15 in reply to "RE: native GUI"
pica Member since:
2005-07-10

Apple ships OS X with vi included. So what about this Apple supported editor? Does it comply with the Apple human interface guidelines?

Sorry, but as a user of jEdit, Netbeans, Eclipse, ... I am very, very glad the key bindings is the same on all platforms.

pica

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: What about vi ...
by kaiwai on Thu 21st Oct 2010 10:26 in reply to "What about vi ..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple ships OS X with vi included. So what about this Apple supported editor? Does it comply with the Apple human interface guidelines?

Sorry, but as a user of jEdit, Netbeans, Eclipse, ... I am very, very glad the key bindings is the same on all platforms.

pica


vi comes as part of UNIX and isn't covered by the Apple HIG therefore your point is invalid. I never attacked these applications I attacked the fact that if you're attempting to create a multiplatform application there will be problems in that those applications will not always conform to the way the environment operates. Sometimes those differences are trivial such as the look of the application whilst sometimes it can be critical such as having keyboard short cuts that don't conform to the convention of the OS.

The comparison to vi is stupid because vi is a CLI based application and netbeans/eclipse/jEdit are GUI based editors - and there is an HIG for that provided by Apple.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: What about vi ...
by pmac on Thu 21st Oct 2010 15:15 in reply to "What about vi ..."
pmac Member since:
2009-07-08

There's no inherit reason why they couldn't be made to use the apple key in the mac version. Java is capable of doing it, so it's not java's fault!

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: What about vi ...
by MysterMask on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 18:41 in reply to "What about vi ..."
MysterMask Member since:
2005-07-12

Sorry, but as a user of jEdit, Netbeans, Eclipse, ... I am very, very glad the key bindings is the same on all platforms.


???
No, they are not. I don't know about jEdit or Netbeans. But for Eclipse, key bindings are different on OS X and Windows (e. g. Mac key bindings usually use [CMD] while the Windows counterpart use [CTRL]).

Furthermore, Eclipse honors platform specific bindings, e. g. the Mac version knows about the standard [CMD] [,] to open preferences (they even moved the preference menu entry to where you expect it on Mac OS).

This is certainly a good thing and it proofs that Java apps can be integrated quite well on every platform as long as developers are willing to do so.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: native GUI
by spiderman on Thu 21st Oct 2010 12:14 in reply to "RE: native GUI"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

Java integration in MacOS X is 1000 times better than running a Windows application under wine. And running Windows application under wine is the only alternative to Java. Just face it, if a developer want to write an application just once, it will run on Windows natively and on Mac OS X under wine.
There is QT but QT requires compilation and most developers won't even bother to compile their app on MacOS X.

Edited 2010-10-21 12:16 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: native GUI
by MacMan on Thu 21st Oct 2010 13:41 in reply to "RE: native GUI"
MacMan Member since:
2006-11-19

Same problem with QT applications, nothing really looks or fits right.

AWT/SWING Java applications are not great on OSX, but SWT based ones like Eclipse are actually pretty nice.

Interesting that about the only "cross platform" toolkit that works decently on all platforms in SWT which is Java based.

If coded correctly, the GUI should be a small isolated part of your application, and should be easy to write in the native toolkit for the platform, -- Windows/C#-Winforms, Linux/GTK,QT and Mac/Cocoa.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: native GUI
by kaiwai on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:53 in reply to "RE[2]: native GUI"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Same problem with QT applications, nothing really looks or fits right.

AWT/SWING Java applications are not great on OSX, but SWT based ones like Eclipse are actually pretty nice.

Interesting that about the only "cross platform" toolkit that works decently on all platforms in SWT which is Java based.

If coded correctly, the GUI should be a small isolated part of your application, and should be easy to write in the native toolkit for the platform, -- Windows/C#-Winforms, Linux/GTK,QT and Mac/Cocoa.


True, Lotus Symphony which uses Ecipse/SWT works really nicely on Mac OS X and the results are pretty consistent with the look and feel of the over all operating system. I've given the latest beta of Symphony a go so if one ever was to look for an alternative for Windows/Linux/Mac OS X, Lotus Symphony does a very good job at that.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: native GUI
by segedunum on Thu 21st Oct 2010 17:49 in reply to "RE[2]: native GUI"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Interesting that about the only "cross platform" toolkit that works decently on all platforms in SWT which is Java based.

If you've taken more than a cursory look at SWT you'll find that isn't the case at all, especially if you look at SWT's still ample bug list.

Creating an environment that you have to specifically port to each and every single platform in every way, to run applications that should be the same on each platform, is hideously error prone.

The primary platform for SWT is Win32. Anything else is a bonus.

Edited 2010-10-21 17:49 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: native GUI
by Koakuma on Thu 21st Oct 2010 14:50 in reply to "RE: native GUI"
Koakuma Member since:
2009-07-02

Jedit kicks ass and allows me to be so productive that I couldn't/don't want to live without it.

The first thing I did was customize appearance, i.e gray font on black background with multi coloured syntax highlighting.

It doesn't look native, so what ? I don't care.
I don't spend my time looking at buttons or borders of windows

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: native GUI
by hohonuuli on Thu 21st Oct 2010 15:19 in reply to "RE: native GUI"
hohonuuli Member since:
2005-11-23

Take JEdit as one example - all the short cuts are set to ctrl instead of command on the Apple Mac;


That is simply untrue. Your familiar key shortcuts that you use in other Mac apps work exactly the same in jEdit. (i.e. use the command key).

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: native GUI
by nemith on Thu 21st Oct 2010 16:24 in reply to "RE: native GUI"
nemith Member since:
2005-07-28

I use Eclipse on both Windows and OS X and it works fine. Eclipse uses Apple style key bindings as well as the native look and feel.

The problem is not the language/run-time, but with the programmer.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: native GUI
by libray on Thu 21st Oct 2010 21:48 in reply to "RE: native GUI"
libray Member since:
2005-08-27

Take JEdit as one example - all the short cuts are set to ctrl instead of command on the Apple Mac; that is one example of why multiplatform applications using Java royally suck.



I would love to make all applications on my Mac default to use >ctrl< rather than "command". It would make use of my 104 key PC keyboard much more useful. I have chrome and a few others set up this way. Maybe I'll give Jedit a shot. Thanks!

Next up, getting Terminal.app to use (In X terms) PRIMARY instead of CLIPBOARD.

Reply Parent Score: 2