Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 22nd Oct 2010 22:11 UTC, submitted by google_ninja
Internet Explorer "There, I said it. Microsoft has been bombarding the media with claims about how much better IE9 is than all the other browsers, more HTML5 and CSS3 compliant than any other browser that ever existing and ever will. It's the only browser that passes all the tests they made up. And, Microsoft has finally implemented the CSS3 selectors that were implemented by other browsers back in, what? 2003? Because Microsoft has updated IE to support CSS3 selectors and rounded corners, they want us to believe that somehow IE9 magically supports the whole slew of CSS3 visual styling. I'm afraid it doesn't. As a matter of fact, IE9's support for CSS3 visual styling is so poor that the results are shocking."
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Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 23rd Oct 2010 00:17 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

A Microsoft employee not to long ago addressed the issue of open standards and the fact remains that man of the browsers have buggy implementations that are silently fixed up with updates. I suggest anyone who thinks otherwise should check out the bug entries over at webkit to see the bugs relating to conformance being fixed.

Regarding Internet Explorer 9's conformance; again, another article was posted regarding Microsoft writing tests for standards that have no conformance tests - those have been submitted to W3C with many of the browsers testing and fixing up bugs behind the scenes. Like the whole Flash and 'poor performance on Mac OS X' fiasco, there seems to be a certain group of loud mouths spouting crap via their blog whilst ignoring that the situation is more complex than just 'Microsoft sucking' as the blogger implied.

In closing, if the individual believes that it is a bug then why hasn't he contacted Microsoft or started a conversation over on Channel 9/MSDN forums? the venue is open to discuss such issues but it seem to be he is more concerned with generating traffic to his website than actually being proactive about getting the problem sorted.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by maxwell on Sat 23rd Oct 2010 00:43 in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
maxwell Member since:
2009-03-23

In closing, if the individual believes that it is a bug then why hasn't he contacted Microsoft or started a conversation over on Channel 9/MSDN forums? the venue is open to discuss such issues but it seem to be he is more concerned with generating traffic to his website than actually being proactive about getting the problem sorted.

Because he's not being payed to seek bugs for Microsoft, a big company with obviously lousy management of their software development process.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 23rd Oct 2010 00:48 in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Because he's not being payed to seek bugs for Microsoft, a big company with obviously lousy management of their software development process.


Why the fuck do you think Microsoft has public betas? to get feedback of course! if you're a developer, come across a bug then head over to the Microsoft website and say, "hey, I found a bug here - is this a known one? can I hope to see this fixed soon before I spend hours trying to develop a work around?".

Sorry, but software development isn't the great unwashed masses and the ivory tower with nether interacting with each other. There is a public beta for a purpose and the fact that the web developer couldn't be even bothered contacting Microsoft to report a bug tells me he is more concerned with bashing Microsoft than bringing the bug to their attention.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by DeadFishMan on Sat 23rd Oct 2010 00:45 in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

You have never done a single line of web development in your life, have you? Caveats well exposed aside, I can certainly agree with the overall sentiment. IE is a f%$%&#$ mess and nothing like giving MS that kick on the curb to have it catching up to the competition.

Having Direct3D-accelerated rendering and other neat features is nice and all but first they really ought to fix the long standing CSS2 bugs and start to implement CSS3 correctly as per the specification - that I bet that you will say that are not well written or some such silliness even though almost every other browser have little to no problem implementing them in a mostly compatible manner - before they start bragging about compatibility with these very standards.

What matters to me as a web developer is that in the end the website will look as intended on all browsers, gimmicks notwithstanding. They have yet to make up for the lousy job that they've done so far and earn their stripes.

And some people really have problems to learn their history: Not too long ago we've had this same bullshit with IE7 and then sometime later IE8 that supposedly had a standards-compliant renderer and a separate "quirks mode" to render the legacy crap that we've been inflicted in the past but neither did a decent job on a reasonably CSS-heavy page.

Stop acting as if you were rooting for an underdog company. Microsoft has the resources to bring it on par with the other browsers and it is about time that people call them on it so that they can actually fix this mess the way the should!

If you spent just one hundredth of the hours that web developers spend just to come up with hacks to tame this beast when they could be spending them doing something actually useful you would certainly see understand where the hatred is coming from...

Edited 2010-10-23 00:52 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 23rd Oct 2010 00:54 in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Amazing how you give Firefox a free pass on the issue of CSS2 bugs to which there is a hell of a lot more than Internet Explorer 8. If you look at Microsoft website where they inform you of the latest test Microsoft's browser conforms to CSS2 to the letter - it is hardly the fault of Microsoft that there are crappy developers out there who have been using these features incorrectly and the established browsers compensating for it. Yes I have done web development and Internet Explorer 9 is a huge leap over previous versions. Are there bugs? sure there are but I'm sure as hell not going to start bashing Internet Explorer 9 whilst ignoring the massive bugs that webkit and Firefox have.

I'm not rooting for an 'underdog' company - what pisses me off are people who are deliberately disingenuous with the facts. I've got problems with Internet Explorer 9 but I sure as hell don't start lying about non-existent problems simply to generate web traffic. Stick the facts and show that you actually give a crap about improving the situation by reporting the bugs instead of using a blog as a platform which benefits no one at the end of the day.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by mabhatter on Mon 25th Oct 2010 00:05 in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
mabhatter Member since:
2005-07-17

A Microsoft employee not to long ago addressed the issue of open standards and the fact remains that man of the browsers have buggy implementations that are silently fixed up with updates. I suggest anyone who thinks otherwise should check out the bug entries over at webkit to see the bugs relating to conformance being fixed.

Regarding Internet Explorer 9's conformance; again, another article was posted regarding Microsoft writing tests for standards that have no conformance tests - those have been submitted to W3C with many of the browsers testing and fixing up bugs behind the scenes. Like the whole Flash and 'poor performance on Mac OS X' fiasco, there seems to be a certain group of loud mouths spouting crap via their blog whilst ignoring that the situation is more complex than just 'Microsoft sucking' as the blogger implied.

In closing, if the individual believes that it is a bug then why hasn't he contacted Microsoft or started a conversation over on Channel 9/MSDN forums? the venue is open to discuss such issues but it seem to be he is more concerned with generating traffic to his website than actually being proactive about getting the problem sorted.


But that's Microsoft's "standards" MO. They read the raw standard and implement it "to the letter". But they go out of their way to play games with things like "may" versus "shall" getting all rules lawyer. Rather than just playing along. They then flood the standard's maintainer with boxes of bug reports or "clarifications" on every little thing. These guys are way smart, but Microsoft breeds the kind of employees that would cheat little kids out of their lunch money with no conscience.

I play some Magic:TG and hang out with some DnD folks too. I see people that are brilliant do this all the time and it makes things Unfun and stressful for no reason, they have some sociopathic need to "win" all the time and won't follow or be led at all. They do this to throw political monkey wrenches into the existing community, forcing existing players to support Microsoft or some small player. IE9 is a symptom that Microsoft has not changed their culture at all, at some point trying to undermine "everybody else" the folks wake up and realize if they cut YOU out things go better.

It's all a big game to get the customers and businesses locked-in. WE are the product being sold to marketing firms and content providers. So it's important IE9 supports things that marketers and content firms need.. because THEY buy the big ASP and .NET installs and development tools. YOU just buy a cheap license from an OEM, they've got your money all ready.

Reply Parent Score: 2