Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 5th Nov 2010 19:15 UTC, submitted by Debjit
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Finally. Finally the leader of a major distribution who has the guts to stand up and say what a lot of people have known for a long time, but didn't dare to say because it usually leads to a storm of criticism. Mark Shuttleworth has announced that Ubuntu will be moving away from X.org, opting to go with Wayland instead.
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RE: Network Transparency
by echo.ranger on Fri 5th Nov 2010 21:53 UTC in reply to "Network Transparency"
echo.ranger
Member since:
2007-01-17

The main issue with X11's network transparency is roundtrip processing. In a remote X11 session, tons of stuff is sent back-and-forth across the connection. The worst of it in my own experience is mouse movement-- all mouse positioning is sent to the system running the X11 client app, which is murder when you're running a remote app over anything further away than your garden variety LAN. I've learned that ANY mouse movement is excessive and incredibly frustrating if you're working on a GUI on a system more than a timezone away or over any wireless connection.

Don't get me wrong, I love X11's networkability and have been using it to do remote-GUI and LTSP for a while now, but it is really an outdated model in these days of WAN/MAN/wireless connections to remote systems with more than 20ms latency.

Things are changing though, particularly NX/NoMachine, which I see as a wonderful and updated solution to the problem that (mostly) intelligently caches data between the connection. VNC and RDP are also more-modern solutions to the same problem (although they aren't root-less like X11's native support is). NX seems to be the path forward IMO as it works to solve the roundtrip delay problem inherent in X11.

My personal leanings would be to push for Wayland for local graphics, run a rootless X11 server on top and use NX for remote-GUI applications. I've already switched all my remote-GUI stuff over to NX anyway (if you haven't tried it, the difference is simply AMAZING for long-distance work) so the rest sounds rather trivial once Wayland is up to par.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[2]: Network Transparency
by phoenix on Sat 6th Nov 2010 01:28 in reply to "RE: Network Transparency"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

The main issue with X11's network transparency is roundtrip processing.


This is very true. It's the reason things like NX were developed: keep local "traffic" local. With NX proxying and caching the X traffic, you can use a full KDE 3.5 desktop, via an SSH-encrypted session, over a simple DSL link.

We have a lot of staff in our district with slow DSL or even dial-up Internet connections who connect to the school NX server and do their Internet surfing that way.

VNC and RDP are also more-modern solutions to the same problem (although they aren't root-less like X11's native support is).


Problem with VNC and RDP is that you can't do it for a single application. It's "whole desktop login" or nothing. There are a *lot* of uses for connecting to a remote system and running just a single GUI app, without having any GUI installed on the remote system.

I've already switched all my remote-GUI stuff over to NX anyway (if you haven't tried it, the difference is simply AMAZING for long-distance work) so the rest sounds rather trivial once Wayland is up to par.


Can you use NX for a single client app, though? That would be nirvana.

Updating the X protocol to include the things that NX does would be the best solution.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[3]: Network Transparency
by smitty on Sat 6th Nov 2010 01:49 in reply to "RE[2]: Network Transparency"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Problem with VNC and RDP is that you can't do it for a single application. It's "whole desktop login" or nothing.

That's what the other poster meant by not being rootless.

Updating the X protocol to include the things that NX does would be the best solution.

Why not the reverse, and update NX to do the things the X protocol does? That seems like the much better solution to me, keeping network transparency out of the lowest levels of the protocol where it doesn't belong and resulting in much cleaner code. Apple and Microsoft have had multiple opportunities to do the same type of architecture that's in X, and they've chosen not to every single time. There's a reason for that. And if you need just app windows and not a full root like RDP gives you, then just make sure your new protocol supports that. There's no need to stick it directly into Wayland to get that functionality.

Reply Parent Score: 2

edogawaconan Member since:
2006-10-10

Problem with VNC and RDP is that you can't do it for a single application. It's "whole desktop login" or nothing. There are a *lot* of uses for connecting to a remote system and running just a single GUI app, without having any GUI installed on the remote system.


I don't know about you, but I've had enough "lost work because of network disconnection for few minutes" to stop trusting X forwarding.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Network Transparency
by n4cer on Sat 6th Nov 2010 14:11 in reply to "RE[2]: Network Transparency"
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06


Problem with VNC and RDP is that you can't do it for a single application. It's "whole desktop login" or nothing. There are a *lot* of uses for connecting to a remote system and running just a single GUI app, without having any GUI installed on the remote system.


The current version of RDP, introduced with Vista/Server 2008, can remote single applications instead of the entire desktop. It's branded as "Terminal Services RemoteApp"
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc753844(WS.10).aspx

Besides using the protocol for standard app publishing via TS, it seems MS also uses it for XP Mode to integrate apps running in the XP Mode VM with the native desktop.

Combined with RemoteFX, introduced with Server 2008 R2 SP1, you can remote high-performance 3D and media applications using host-side GPUs rather than client-side.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff817578(WS.10).aspx

RemoteFX Thin Client Demo
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/remotefx-in-server-2008-r2-...

PDC 2008: RDP Today and Tomorrow
http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/pdc2008/ES21

Reply Parent Score: 4

Flatland_Spider Member since:
2006-09-01

You can setup NX to launch a single app. You create a custom connection and specify the location of the application.

For instance, I've run Konsole on it's own, so I wouldn't have to use it's default terminal of Xterm.

Reply Parent Score: 2