Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 10th Nov 2010 23:31 UTC
In the News Wait, what - let me get this straight. A powerful politician, a politician who managed to bring even the largest companies to their knees, is on the side of reason in the copyright debate? Yes, Neelie Kroes, in her capacity as European Commissioner for Digital Agenda, has openly expressed her support for copyright reform. Her argumentation is incredibly lucid and clear, and pretty much echoes everything I've written about copyright here on OSNews.
Thread beginning with comment 449767
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[6]: Heh
by ndrw on Fri 12th Nov 2010 16:50 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Heh"
ndrw
Member since:
2009-06-30

(You sound a lot like one old man from former East Germany that was telling me how wonderful and prosperous state it was. Well, it wasn't, really. And now most countries seem to follow that model more and more closely.)

USA has a problem with its debt. That has nothing to do with being a socialist or a capitalist state and a lot to do with living out of their credit cards. Of course extensive social welfare programs are not helping them them to keep their books clean, neither do military actions or blowing up bubble after bubble. And if you haven't noticed yet, USA is not the only country experiencing these problems. You'd actually have to search for a country that isn't currently loaded with debt.

As for prosperous Scandinavia, here is an interesting excerpt from Wikipedia page about Sweden:

"However, from the 1970s and onwards Sweden's GDP growth fell behind other industrialized countries and the country's per capita ranking fell from the 4th to 14th place in a few decades."

In short: socialism is good if you have pockets full of money and strong industry to start with (extensive natural resources will also prove useful). To be fair, Sweden is doing unusually well for a socialist state, especially if you compare their decline with that of Cuba.

To come back to the original topic: people tend to take copyright (or pension, or free medical care) for granted and treat them very seriously. I can't help the feeling that in case of even a minor military conflict or a somewhat larger economic crisis, all these matters would be last on our lists of priorities. It is that perceived safety and prosperity that makes us forget about more important matters and indulge in illusions. Copyright (leaked information is copyable, you don't need a "right", you need a "copier"), pension ("sorry, there is no money", or "your family is your insurance"), free medical care ("what care?") are all only illusions of our rights. We only really have what we have earned.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[7]: Heh
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 12th Nov 2010 17:03 in reply to "RE[6]: Heh"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

n short: socialism is good if you have pockets full of money and strong industry to start with (extensive natural resources will also prove useful). To be fair, Sweden is doing unusually well for a socialist state, especially if you compare their decline with that of Cuba.


Comparing Sweden to Cuba?

Like I said: please read up on what "socialism" is. I'm not going to have a serious discussion with someone who equates Cuba with Sweden. It just shows your total and utter lack of understanding of how modern European welfare states, like Sweden and The Netherlands, are organised.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Heh
by ndrw on Fri 12th Nov 2010 18:35 in reply to "RE[7]: Heh"
ndrw Member since:
2009-06-30

Having actually lived on both sides of the curtain I can see the differences but also an awful lot of similarities. (It's kind of ironic that you're sending me to books on socialism when I'm doing my best to stay away from this system.)

Yes, the comparison to Cuba was (purposely) extreme (after all Sweden had different starting point, better allies, no dictatorship, no embargo on international trade and other problems not necessarily related to socialism) but welfare systems in both these states are not that completely dissimilar. I sometimes feel like having a deja vu seeing more and more methods taken straight from the former communist block and implemented in "western democracies". Pretty sad.

Anyway, the key point wasn't the situation in Cuba but in Sweden. Sweden is often given as an example of a successful welfare state but what is almost always missed is the context. And the context is that Sweden is slowly but surely getting poorer. Keep in mind that the present welfare system is irrelevant for us, what matters is the system at the time when we are about to retire. Now, if Sweden is the best socialist state, what about others?

I'm also tired of this discussion (at least that's what I hoped for - instead I got a fight, thank you very much). Judging by scores, looks like others don't like this discussion either, so, if you don't mind, let's finish it now.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Heh
by Veto on Sat 13th Nov 2010 11:33 in reply to "RE[6]: Heh"
Veto Member since:
2010-11-13

You sound a lot like one old man from former East Germany...

A comment like that only makes your ignorance more obvious.

USA has a problem with its debt. That has nothing to do with being a socialist or a capitalist state

It has everything to do with having politicians in the pockets of big corporations.

To be fair, Sweden is doing unusually well for a socialist state, especially if you compare their decline with that of Cuba.

Again. Comparing Cuba with Sweden only serves to expose your ignorance. They are two very different countries.

free medical care ("what care?") are all only illusions of our rights. We only really have what we have earned.

Yes. But earned individually or as a society?

What you call "socialism" in Europe is not about equal living, but about equal rights and equal opportunity. In USA all rights and opportunities seem most proportional with the size of your wallet.

In th USA who is most likely to go to jail: The rich murderer or the poor innocent black kid?

In the USA who is most likely to go to university: The rich dunce or the poor smart?

In the USA who is most likely to be elected: The guy with a vision or the guy serving the corporations?

In the USA who is most likely to get proper medical treatment: The guy working with dangerous chemicals his whole life or his boss with obesity induced heart problems?

Reply Parent Score: 3