Linked by Howard Fosdick on Mon 13th Dec 2010 23:11 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless It's hard to predict the future because we humans prefer to think in terms of familiar paradigms. Even the most brilliant of our species are subject to this flaw. Now, Microsoft faces its turn. The owner of the operating system that likely runs your personal computer, the company that achieved monopoly with Windows and ducked the Department of Justice's scythe to keep it, faces a midlife crisis as the world goes gaga over portable consumer devices. This is the story of what's happening to Microsoft in the handheld operating system markets -- and how it parallels the earlier, similar journeys of IBM Corporation and Digital Equipment Corporation. Can Microsoft achieve dominance on mobile devices?
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RE[7]: Comment by Neolander
by lemur2 on Tue 14th Dec 2010 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by Neolander"
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

"MS Office has very poor compatibility with other Office suites. In that aspect it is way worse than OpenOffice in every way. Where two parties are interchanging documents and they use different Office suites, in general it will be the party which uses Microsoft Office which has the most problem. Using Microsoft Office is even a problem with your own organisation's older archived documents. The need to exchange exceedingly complex MS Office documents (that may not work) is very small. Even when the other party has a different version of Office, such an exchange may not work. Choose any format OTHER THAN MS Office formats in order to have a more successful document interchange.


As someone else said, it does not matter. MS Office is currently the de facto standard, therefore everyone uses doc/docx for exchanging re-writable documents. It's a sad fact of life, and open-source office suites just have to cope with it. If people were reasonable, everybody would be using PDF anyway.
"

When poeple are reasonable, PDF is not a problem at all on a Linux desktop. My desktop uses Okular as the PDF viewer, and LibrOffice can write PDF files from any application, as can Calligra Office, and there is a "print to PDF" utility installed by default so that applications which do not support PDF output directly can support it indirectly.

"Yet OpenOffice still has 10% to 20% installed base, and growing.
Because it's free and because most office suites users are casual users which would already be satisfied with abiword anyway. "

Whatever the reason, OpenOffice and derivatives still have 10% to 20% of installed base, and growing. This was the level of installed base at which Firefox began to cause problems for "IE only" websites, BTW, and users began to demand support for Firefox in significant enough numbers.

"It is by far and away the best solution for document interchange and archival purposes.
No, no, and no ! If you want a document which looks exactly the same way on all computers and printers you can think of, PDF is simply the only way to go. A missing font is generally all it takes for ODT/DOC documents to get their formatting completely messed up (when it's not worse). Moreover, on the average guy's computer, you're much more likely to find a decent PDF reader than the exact same version of the office suite you're using. The core PDF standard is much more stable, and readers are more mature. "

ODT meets all of the requirements for document interchange and archival that PDF does, with the advantage that the file is still editable if need be, so that it also meets requirements for archival.

"It amply meets the needs of well over 90% of uses cases for an Office suite ... perhaps more.
That's the reason why office might fall someday... But looking at the arguments a friend gave me when he told me that he was going to buy Word instead of using OpenOffice, I somehow doubt it.
Then XLSTAT is clearly not a technology that one should be using for information interchange or archival. This remark probably applies even better to MS Office itself.
Again, this also applies to nearly anything but PDFs, 7-bit ASCII text files, PCM, and similarly primitive formats. The problem is, when you want something a bit more powerful, you have to look somewhere else. Ardour, Audacity, and Cubase don't use standard file formats either, that doesn't make them less interesting as long as everyone in your team is using them.
"

But, like MS Office, Ardour, Audacity, and Cubase are no good for document interchange and archival purposes. OpenOffice is.

Wake me up when it actually starts to give more interesting results than 2D acceleration and GPU fans blowing hot air at full speed.


Wakey wakey.

"The mobile and handheld space is, after all, more about ARM than it is about x86.
Again, I don't deny that, but I'm talking about the desktop here, which is exclusively x86 "

So you are talking off topic then?

http://www.bricsys.com/en_INTL/bricscad/index.jsp
If you put an AutoCAD user in front of it, will it master it in 10 minutes ?


That is the idea, yes. AutoCAD is a complex application, and to use it properly requires significant training. Once a computer user has mastered AutoCAD, they are pretty much able to master all kinds of UIs.

However, your original question ... "where is AutoCAD for Linux" is answered, and your question is out of date.

Photoshop users have their gripes with GIMP, and single window mode is only one of them. They will tell you about the extensive use of contextual menus in photoshop for faster use when you're experienced (at the cost of much harder learning), non-destructive editing features, CMYK (though I heard that GEGL was going to bring that someday), GPU acceleration (ditto)...


GEGL is supposed to address all of the claimed deficiencies of inner workings of GIMP just as single--window-UI-mode address in the UI. GIMP is powerful but slow to improve. Krita is catching it up. Whatever, there is no need to run Photoshop these days, especially when you consider the price. OMG!

may I ask you if you know about a good data plotting and analysis software (something in the spirit of Origin or IGOR Pro) which runs on both Windows and Linux ? I'm on Windows since I moved to a laptop, as the power management of current desktop Linux distros made me want to smash my head on my desk, but I consider getting back in the open-source OS world once that is fixed, so I would like to keep using software which works everywhere.


Not my field, but here are some things to check out:
http://elettrolinux.com/Analyze-Visualize/qtiplot-a-data-analysis-a...
http://soft.proindependent.com/qtiplot.html

http://www.gle-graphics.org/

http://labplot.sourceforge.net/
(the KDE4 version is still only at alpha 2 stage)

This one isn't ready yet, but I believe they are working to get it integrated with GNU Octave, which would give it more grunt.
http://edu.kde.org/cantor/

"After Effect: well, not every use case is covered by Linux. Where is a decent-performing Blender for Windows?
Well, the current betas didn't shocked me by their awful performance, although they have their quirks in other domains (dammit, where is my multicut gone ?). I can also argue that Windows has a number of professional 3D apps of the level of Blender : 3DS Max, Lightwave... "

Agreed. The question however is not "does Windows have applications" but rather "does Linux also". The answer to the latter question, for by far the majority of users and use cases, is emphatically "yes it does".

" Why would you assume that the productivity had to be higher on a Windows desktop?
I don't assume that. Same for clipboard history : never got to really use it. The sole interest of Klipper, in my opinion, was that it addressed the broken way copy and paste works on some linux desktops : -Copy something -Close the app -Paste... Paste... Crap, the copied content was not actually copied, it's gone with the app ! "

Amazing. You go out of your way to try to claim that there are no aplications for Linux desktop in some areas, when in fact there are, and then when areas of the Linux desktop that are not implemented in Windows are pointed out, you simply dismiss them.

Biased much?

Edited 2010-12-14 23:08 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Comment by Neolander
by Neolander on Wed 15th Dec 2010 07:24 in reply to "RE[7]: Comment by Neolander"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

As someone else said, it does not matter. MS Office is currently the de facto standard, therefore everyone uses doc/docx for exchanging re-writable documents. It's a sad fact of life, and open-source office suites just have to cope with it. If people were reasonable, everybody would be using PDF anyway.
When poeple are reasonable, PDF is not a problem at all on a Linux desktop. My desktop uses Okular as the PDF viewer, and LibrOffice can write PDF files from any application, as can Calligra Office, and there is a "print to PDF" utility installed by default so that applications which do not support PDF output directly can support it indirectly.

I don't said that PDF did not work on linux, but rather that it's guaranteed to work everywhere and that therefore people would use it whenever possible if they were reasonable (and willing to save themselves some headaches).

Whatever the reason, OpenOffice and derivatives still have 10% to 20% of installed base, and growing. This was the level of installed base at which Firefox began to cause problems for "IE only" websites, BTW, and users began to demand support for Firefox in significant enough numbers.

We'll see if it works the same way for OO and its derivatives. I must admit that seeing a lot of schools switch to it in my country made me a bit more optimistic than usual.

ODT meets all of the requirements for document interchange and archival that PDF does,

In my opinion, one of the requirements would be not to require the recipient to install anything. If I save an ODT file today with OpenOffice 3.2, and my recipient has OpenOffice 2.0, will he be able to open it without upgrading ?

You see, the beauty of PDF is that most of the core features are frozen. Even if my recipient is on one of these locked-down corporate machines with only the core MS fonts and a prehistoric Acrobat 4, there are still chances that opening a freshly-made PDF will work, with flawless rendering. Things which would fail are the new funky features, like translucency, forms, or video inclusion, but the "PDF export" function of office suites don't use them.

with the advantage that the file is still editable if need be, so that it also meets requirements for archival.

Why would archival require documents to be editable ? If I'm taking this document deep into the basement, it's probably that I only need it for future reference purposes and that I don't need it to be writable anymore, isn't it ?

But, like MS Office, Ardour, Audacity, and Cubase are no good for document interchange and archival purposes.

There we agree. That's why XLSTAT's main mode of operation is to auto-generate spreadsheets and store its results in it. You use it for work, because it's convenient, but your recipient don't need to have it in order to see the results.

Wake me up when it actually starts to give more interesting results than 2D acceleration and GPU fans blowing hot air at full speed.
Wakey wakey.

Mmmm ? Nouveau can run Nexuiz flawlessly and smoothly on a 7800GT now ?

Again, I don't deny that, but I'm talking about the desktop here, which is exclusively x86
So you are talking off topic then?

No. The initial post was about the Windows+Office monopoly. Windows and Office are desktop software. I don't care if Microsoft want to call their mobile OS Windows Mobile or Windows Phone, I consider it as being a different product than Windows.

If you put an AutoCAD user in front of it, will it master it in 10 minutes ?

That is the idea, yes. AutoCAD is a complex application, and to use it properly requires significant training. Once a computer user has mastered AutoCAD, they are pretty much able to master all kinds of UIs.

However, your original question ... "where is AutoCAD for Linux" is answered, and your question is out of date.

Okay. I admit you have a point there.

GEGL is supposed to address all of the claimed deficiencies of inner workings of GIMP just as single--window-UI-mode address in the UI. GIMP is powerful but slow to improve. Krita is catching it up.

I thought Krita was more targeted at painting and not at general image creation and editing like GIMP ? Btw, hasn't the name changed with the move to Calligra ?

Whatever, there is no need to run Photoshop these days, especially when you consider the price. OMG!

I've tried to argue this with some diehard photoshop fans. It failed. They always manage to find something nifty which they use a lot and which isn't present in GIMP.


Wonderful ! Seems to be exactly what I want. They even were kind enough to mimick Origin's interface to a great extent, which makes getting to know their software much easier... Well, those guys have got my money there ;)

I wonder how you manage to find these gems sometimes.


No, not exactly... In experimental physics, typical workflow of Origin works this way :
-Measure a pack of data using some proprietary software, get it in the form of an ASCII array
-Load that array in an Origin project associated to your current experiment (allows you to organize your files more easily)
-Try to plot it, check if export worked properly
-Convert the data you measured to other units using some simple formulas
-Fit the data with the theoretical formula, using either one of the numerous predefined fits or a nonlinear fit.
-Make a nice-looking plot of what you've done
-Print or export in PNG for use in office suites and LaTeX

This seems to only take care of the "nice-looking plot" part.

http://labplot.sourceforge.net/
(the KDE4 version is still only at alpha 2 stage)

I prefer to stick with stable software for work, thanks ;)

This one isn't ready yet, but I believe they are working to get it integrated with GNU Octave, which would give it more grunt.
http://edu.kde.org/cantor/

The idea of making a better frontend to Maxima is interesting, but doesn't work on Windows and as you said is probably not ready yet.

Agreed. The question however is not "does Windows have applications" but rather "does Linux also". The answer to the latter question, for by far the majority of users and use cases, is emphatically "yes it does".

You have a point.

Amazing. You go out of your way to try to claim that there are no aplications for Linux desktop in some areas, when in fact there are,

Oh, if that's the problem, I can go looking for video editing which doesn't suck as a whole... Though I heard that this is finally getting fixed.

and then when areas of the Linux desktop that are not implemented in Windows are pointed out, you simply dismiss them.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/cc817881.aspx (among many others)
http://clipdiary.com/

I can find some links too ;)

Biased much?

Everyone is to some extent. Try to defend H.264 and Adobe Flash for a while.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: Comment by Neolander
by lemur2 on Wed 15th Dec 2010 09:28 in reply to "RE[8]: Comment by Neolander"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Well, this is a reasonable response, so thanks for reading.

One point:

Nouveau can run Nexuiz flawlessly and smoothly on a 7800GT now ?


When I said "wakey wakey", I was talking about the open source drivers which have been written to satisfy these programming specifications released by one OEM:

http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/

Remember? That has absolutely nothing to do with Nouveau. That OEM released no such information. Nouveau is reverse-engineered.

Anyway, what I was talking about would be this driver:
http://wiki.x.org/wiki/radeon

At this time, this driver has these features:
http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature

There is quite a bit of green (and still some yellow, lets be honest), under the section: Mesa 3D features

It is pretty much all green under the section: Power Saving

So ... buy a system with a AMD/ATI graphics chip, or get one which is being disposed of by a company, and ... wakey wakey.

Other point:

Desktop & laptop systems with Linux pre-installed:

In my country, get them from here:
http://www.pioneercomputers.com.au/products/
or here:
http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/

The latter list has a helpful list of contemporary laptops:
http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/notebookcompare.html

Look in the right-hand column (under the heading "Linux compatibility") and select a model which has an "excellent" rating (there are many to choose from at all levels of cost and performance, Lenovo seems to be the best bet). Buy that same model in any country, get a LiveCD, boot from that without ever booting Windows, wipe Windows, install Linux ... you are set! Perhpas you might be able to get a refund for the unused copy of Windows.

If your country is the US, you might opt to buy your laptop from here:
http://www.system76.com/index.php?cPath=28
or here:
http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/

If I want a tablet rather than a laptop or netbook, I could choose this:
http://www.pioneercomputers.com.au/products/info.asp?c1=183&c2=185&...
or one of these (with Android or Ubuntu):
http://www.pioneercomputers.com.au/products/products.asp?c1=183&c2=...
NOTE: When it says "Ready for Microsoft Windows® 7 / Android" it means you must choose one or the other, or you may choose Ubuntu instead.

Edited 2010-12-15 09:36 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: Comment by Neolander
by oiaohm on Wed 15th Dec 2010 10:49 in reply to "RE[8]: Comment by Neolander"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30



"Whatever the reason, OpenOffice and derivatives still have 10% to 20% of installed base, and growing. This was the level of installed base at which Firefox began to cause problems for "IE only" websites, BTW, and users began to demand support for Firefox in significant enough numbers.

We'll see if it works the same way for OO and its derivatives. I must admit that seeing a lot of schools switch to it in my country made me a bit more optimistic than usual.

ODT meets all of the requirements for document interchange and archival that PDF does,

In my opinion, one of the requirements would be not to require the recipient to install anything. If I save an ODT file today with OpenOffice 3.2, and my recipient has OpenOffice 2.0, will he be able to open it without upgrading ?

You see, the beauty of PDF is that most of the core features are frozen. Even if my recipient is on one of these locked-down corporate machines with only the core MS fonts and a prehistoric Acrobat 4, there are still chances that opening a freshly-made PDF will work, with flawless rendering. Things which would fail are the new funky features, like translucency, forms, or video inclusion, but the "PDF export" function of office suites don't use them.
"
Are you trying to make a idiot out of yourself.
* (1993) – PDF 1.0 / Acrobat 1.0
* (1994) – PDF 1.1 / Acrobat 2.0
* (1996) – PDF 1.2 / Acrobat 3.0
* (1999) – PDF 1.3 / Acrobat 4.0
* (2001) – PDF 1.4 / Acrobat 5.0
* (2003) – PDF 1.5 / Acrobat 6.0
* (2005) – PDF 1.6 / Acrobat 7.0
* (2006) – PDF 1.7 / Acrobat 8.0
* (2008) – PDF 1.7, Adobe Extension Level 3 / Acrobat 9.0
* (2009) – PDF 1.7, Adobe Extension Level 5 / Acrobat 9.1
On top of that there is a PDF/A format. That is a special sub form that is compatible. Saving in PDF 1.7 it is possible that it will not open in PDF 1.0. To be correct PDF 1.0 readers from 1993 cannot read PDF/A files.

If you are sending to someone with OpenOffice 2.0 from OpenOffice 3.2 you would save as ODF 1.1. But since Openoffice is free it costs a person nothing to upgrade to read ODF 1.2. Simple fact here not even PDF has perfect support for out of date reader programs. You would know this if you knew the PDF format. Does ODF open forwards without problems yes it does. Does doc files open forwards without problems answer no they don't.

Does openoffice cost a lot to update to support the newer formats no it don't either. So stupid and poor point to try to use against openoffice. This is the same rule as early Acrobat. Since Adobe gave away Acrobat reader for free.

ODF has not got to the point yet where it would be sane to tag from here is the archive format that will be used for now on. One day it will.


There we agree. That's why XLSTAT's main mode of operation is to auto-generate spreadsheets and store its results in it. You use it for work, because it's convenient, but your recipient don't need to have it in order to see the results.

And I use a lot of report generation tools working from databases todo the same stuff. I don't see XLSTAT as anything special. Like Jasperreports and other report pulling tools.


No. The initial post was about the Windows+Office monopoly. Windows and Office are desktop software. I don't care if Microsoft want to call their mobile OS Windows Mobile or Windows Phone, I consider it as being a different product than Windows.

Then you are a off topic thread. The topic discussions has to relate of this is set by. How Microsoft Missed The Next Big Thing. Yes I have strenched the topic but you are talking about breaking it. Thinking Microsoft Missed The Next Big Thing is about Windows Mobile/Phone.

"GEGL is supposed to address all of the claimed deficiencies of inner workings of GIMP just as single--window-UI-mode address in the UI. GIMP is powerful but slow to improve. Krita is catching it up.

I thought Krita was more targeted at painting and not at general image creation and editing like GIMP ? Btw, hasn't the name changed with the move to Calligra ?
"
Krita is still called Krita under the rename Koffice to Calligra. Karbon also has not changed it name. This is what I am complaining about be upto date please before posting stupid comments. It pure annoying to have to be correcting stuff like this.

Krita core engine targets new picture create but is share parts with http://www.digikam.org/ that focus on what I would call post production correction of images.

digikam is another program you most likely have never see on windows. Its only been around for over 10 years in the Linux worlds so its quite mature. The share of parts in the KDE world makers some of there applications by the targeted descriptions appear a lot weaker than what they really are.

"Whatever, there is no need to run Photoshop these days, especially when you consider the price. OMG!

I've tried to argue this with some diehard photoshop fans. It failed. They always manage to find something nifty which they use a lot and which isn't present in GIMP.
"
So is it a case that the Linux world should start planing to buy Adobe? This is a serous question. Last few years Linux companies have been getting more and more cashed up. At this rate one of the may be large enough to buy Adobe in 3 years.

This is the problem about holding up just apps from one company a lot. Like what happened with Lightworks and Netflix DRM provider. Google bought Netflix DRM providers that since Netflix said they would not support andriod. Money talks and open source has it at the moment.

So its different to other times in Open source history spending way out of problems is a possibility if they cannot be solved through cloning.

I wonder how you manage to find these gems sometimes.


There are nice detailed index sites of open source software if you know where to look.

"http://labplot.sourceforge.net/
(the KDE4 version is still only at alpha 2 stage)

I prefer to stick with stable software for work, thanks ;)
"
Again how people show they don't know the open source way. Even if you are not going to use the software yet it pays to trail run it like any other windows demo. Report back what they have wrong before its get built into there design in a way that is hard to remove. This is how we who use open source all the time end up getting exactly what we want.

H.264 decoding is planed for on video cards. So Linux will not need a license of that.

I am sorry I don't call you bias. I have something way more insulting. Under researched and on the edge of being a moron on the subject.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[9]: Comment by Neolander
by lemur2 on Wed 15th Dec 2010 11:32 in reply to "RE[8]: Comment by Neolander"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Your question was:

may I ask you if you know about a good data plotting and analysis software


Your observation:
I wonder how you manage to find these gems sometimes.


It wasn't hard.

I typed the following series of words into the google search bar on Firefox:
data plotting analysis linux

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=data+plotting+analysis+linux&ie=u...

qtiplot was the second hit.

Labplot was the third hit.

elettrolinux.com was the ninth hit.

Reply Parent Score: 2