Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 18th Jan 2011 22:18 UTC, submitted by alinandrei
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu De kogel is door de kerk. After years of focussing entirely on Gtk+ and GNOME, Ubuntu will finally start evaluating Qt applications for inclusion in the defaukt Ubuntu installation. Mark Shuttleworth announced the policy change on his blog today.
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Talk about arrogance
by phoenix on Tue 18th Jan 2011 22:33 UTC
phoenix
Member since:
2005-07-11

What is it with {GNOME|Ubuntu|Shuttleworth} thinking that everything has to be done their way or nothing?

Rather than working with the QT devs, the KDE devs, the GNOME devs to find common-ground for storing, accessing, changing settings, Shuttleworth wants to (basically) fork QT, shoehorn in DConf support, and create a bunch of Ubuntu-specific QT apps that use DConf. And, probably, use the glib even loop in QT, and (maybe down the road) just turn around and use GTK to draw QT widgets.

Talk about driving a wedge into the desktop world. I thought we had the freedesktop.org movement to find commonalities and common ways to do things so that each toolkit could work together.

Aaron Seigo published a response that covers it nicely:
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2011/01/qt-acceptance-growing-next-colab...

Collaboration is needed. Not shoehorning your methods into someone else's toolkit.

Reply Score: 15

RE: Talk about arrogance
by orestes on Tue 18th Jan 2011 22:40 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
orestes Member since:
2005-07-06

Collaboration is nice in theory, but design by committee is usually mediocre at best and disastrous at worst. If Shuttleworth's got a clear vision of what his OS should be and wants to drop the manpower into making it happen, more power to him.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE: Talk about arrogance
by Soulbender on Tue 18th Jan 2011 22:43 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Funny how aaron doesnt seem to agree with you.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by segedunum on Tue 18th Jan 2011 22:52 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Funny how aaron doesnt seem to agree with you.

Where do you get that idea from?

...I hope that the message of working together (rather than dictating, for life or otherwise) also spreads.


Edited 2011-01-18 22:52 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by phoenix on Tue 18th Jan 2011 22:53 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Did you read the same blog posts I did? Because it sounds like you didn't.

"Mark suggests that Qt developers should start using Canonical's Qt add-on libraries for things like dconf so that Qt apps integrate properly with Ubuntu."

Basically, forking QT, leading to Ubuntu-only QT apps.

"To get applications working together as well as possible, the answer is not to start creating Ubuntu-targeted versions of Qt apps"

Collaborate, don't fork.

"Solving this means working together, not thinking that we are individually capable of coming up with the best ideas ever and that the world should simply bend to our whim of the day."

Which is what Shuttleworth is doing, by shoehorning DConf support into a Canonical fork of QT, instead of working together with QT and/or KDE devs to find a solution to the settings issue.

"As more groups warm to the beauty that is embodied in Qt, I hope that the message of working together (rather than dictating, for life or otherwise) also spreads."

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE: Talk about arrogance
by s-peter on Tue 18th Jan 2011 23:05 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
s-peter Member since:
2006-01-29

What is it with {GNOME|Ubuntu|Shuttleworth} thinking that everything has to be done their way or nothing?


Nothing has to be done "their way or nothing"... The beauty of open source / free software is that if you like the idea you can use their software, and if you don't like it, you can use any of the alternatives that suits your preferences.

Canonical is just putting its money where its mouth is by sticking to a vision and implementing stuff based on it, rather than trying to draw conclusions from discussions at different forums that usually turn into endless (and often pointless) "religious wars". Whether the vision/idea is good will ultimately be decided by the users. (Unfortunately this doesn't prevent others from having endless and pointless religious wars related to Ubuntu.)

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by segedunum on Tue 18th Jan 2011 23:37 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

...implementing stuff based on it, rather than trying to draw conclusions from discussions at different forums that usually turn into endless (and often pointless) "religious wars".

I'm sorry, but I'm chuckling at how ironic that statement actually is.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Talk about arrogance
by vivainio on Tue 18th Jan 2011 23:34 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
vivainio Member since:
2008-12-26

And, probably, use the glib even loop in QT


All (?) Linux distros have built Qt to use glib for event loop for years. That's the way to integrate with gnome stuff.
Collaboration is needed. Not shoehorning your methods into someone else's toolkit.


What is needed is *action*, not planning or discussing about planning. For whatever canonical is bashed for these days, you can at least trust that they are *doing*, not debating.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by segedunum on Tue 18th Jan 2011 23:54 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

What is needed is *action*, not planning or discussing about planning. For whatever canonical is bashed for these days, you can at least trust that they are *doing*, not debating.

I don't think it's beyond the realms of sensibility that getting some buy-in from the developers of the software that you hope to use before hand would be a good idea for everyone.

Canonical has ended up 'doing' a lot of things over the years......and not being terribly successful at getting others to join in.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Talk about arrogance
by benhonghu on Wed 19th Jan 2011 02:25 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
benhonghu Member since:
2008-08-24

Collaboration is needed. Not shoehorning your methods into someone else's toolkit.


The beauty of open source development is it's largely an evolution rather than design. For it to work people need to let go of the notion that there's only one good way of doing things. We need to let people do what they think is the best to do, encourage them to do different thing.

So let Shuttleworth do his thing to Ubuntu. If you don't like it, you have 9071431 other distributions to choose from, pick the one you like.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by lemur2 on Wed 19th Jan 2011 02:48 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

So let Shuttleworth do his thing to Ubuntu.


Sure. Go ahead. Whatever. Away you go, and write a set of interface binding for Qt apps to be able to query dconf. Fill your boots.

Just don't expect authors of Qt programs to re-write all their applications (to call those bindings) just to satisfy the Ubuntu desktop.

As this thread title says ... talk about arrogance! Sheesh.

PS: I have an alternative proposal for Ubuntu ... re-write dconf for Ubuntu to set not only the dconf database but also to make synchronous, sympathetic changes to Qsettings. Integrate Qt applications without requiring any re-write by authors of said qt applications.

Edited 2011-01-19 02:55 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by phoenix on Fri 21st Jan 2011 19:59 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

The beauty of open source development is it's largely an evolution rather than design.


The biggest problem with open-source development is that it's largely evolution rather than design.

For it to work people need to let go of the notion that there's only one good way of doing things. We need to let people do what they think is the best to do, encourage them to do different thing.


Which is fine, so long as there is a vision of what the end product should look like. Re-doing things every 6 months because it doesn't work is no way to run a software project. There needs to be some kind of framework, plan, whatever, and not just "try X; fail; try Y; fail; Try Z; mostly works; Try Q; almost works; try A; works; try B; works better" ad nauseum.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Talk about arrogance
by Aragorn992 on Wed 19th Jan 2011 07:55 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
Aragorn992 Member since:
2007-05-27

Because design-by-committee has been time again shown to be slow and often substandard. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. It's true that this method rarely fails but it also rarely produces something innovative.

That's not even taking into account the typical knee-jerk reactions I would expect from the non-Ubuntu people in the open source world (which Ubuntu has plenty of experience with, by the way).

Arrogrant, bloody-minded, dictatorship (I'm purposely exaggerating) can be a good thing.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by mart on Wed 19th Jan 2011 10:37 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
mart Member since:
2005-11-17

Because design-by-committee has been time again shown to be slow and often substandard. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. It's true that this method rarely fails but it also rarely produces something innovative.


and never the less, without efforts like freedesktop (that admittely have its share of problems) we wouldn't even have the same storage for the start menu, the same hints for windows (a panel is a panel in all window managers that wasn't really true some years ago) we couldn't see notifications of applications written in the other toolkit...

(to not mention waay wider efforts like uhm, HTML anyone?)

Now, we have gained a significant amount of interoperability over those years, it would be a shame backpedal it.

Things like Ubuntu just proposed, are in the right direction, with the best intentions of the world.
What I say is, be careful of how something is pushed forward, a little "implementation detail", like it can be the choice of writing backends versus a new api, can have the consequence of having very good or very bad consequences.

And you know how all of this can be avoided? it's called "working together", and is what it's slowly starting to happen. We are talking with them and for this very reason I'm delaying any judging until this thing rolls down.
As collaboration with Ubuntu goes, in the history we have very sore points but very successful episodes as well (for instance the integration of our StatusNotifier protocol with their DBusMenu protocol was a quite good example of working together) so, we'll see.

What I can say, that from KDE we are always open for collaboration.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Talk about arrogance
by twizster on Wed 19th Jan 2011 22:40 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
twizster Member since:
2011-01-19

anyone tried it on trunk GNOME? seems to fail miserably on x86_64 (core dumps all the time.)

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Talk about arrogance
by Sauron on Thu 20th Jan 2011 00:37 in reply to "RE: Talk about arrogance"
Sauron Member since:
2005-08-02

Not surprising. QT apps or not, Ubuntu will still be the crash happy Linux Distro that breaks on every update!

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Talk about arrogance
by disposaboy on Sat 22nd Jan 2011 11:34 in reply to "Talk about arrogance"
disposaboy Member since:
2011-01-22

You don't appear to know what you're talking about.

Reply Parent Score: 1