Linked by Oliver on Fri 11th Mar 2011 23:32 UTC
GNU, GPL, Open Source "Now that Linux is the most popular free Unix-like operating system, it shouldn't be a surprise that some projects have begun treating non-Linux operating systems as second-class citizens. This isn't out of contempt for the BSDs or OpenSolaris, it's just a matter of limited manpower: if almost all the users of the application have a Linux operating system and if all the core developers are using Linux themselves, it's difficult to keep supporting other operating systems. But sometimes the choice to leave out support for other operating systems is explicitly made, e.g. when the developers want to implement some innovative features that require functionality that is (at least for now) only available in the Linux kernel."
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oiaohm
Member since:
2009-05-30

It's not really "them and us".
It's two different approaches, and I think it's cool that way.


them and us is wrong. But set party putting head in sand over particular items been marked to go end of life and not working on a solution has lead to a lot of the current breakage.

There will always been difference. But the portability divide is only as large as it now due to the need to address problems.

program->hald->kernel and back. Remember context switches are slow.

Hald is legacy of Unix when it did not support dynamic libraries. So there is need for a common dynamic lib to replace hald in some areas. Not a common daemon any more.

dbus even if it was still doing all of Hald. Difference is dbus support per application secuirty. Hald does not.

Lot of tech designs have there time to die. Incompatibility between Linux and BSD has expanded because BSD is simply not ready.

Really it would have been stupid for Linux developers to go out alone and try to design a new common library for all posix platforms if those platforms would not cooperate. Best option is to go on with Linux only solutions and wait for the hell to catch up with BSD and the like.

systemd is based of apple launchd design and expanded on to take advantage of the features Linux kernel offers. Now why is not BSD doing the same.

BSD developers have sat in one place too long that is the problem. Does the BSD service system offer fast startup? Nop. Has linux developers been searching for faster ways to start the system yes. upstart and many other different startup systems to freebsd.

BSD arguement we better wait for the innovation to settle. Fine. We will settle. We will simply not design a system that suits BSD because BSD was not their providing there limits.

Wait for innovation to settle is basically say when you massively have something that now does not suit you stiff. Why innovation is underway design errors can be simply fixed.

To late once the system is design as settled and locked down to be saying lets change features now. That is were BSD is now. Lot of features are locked down based in udev design. Because bsd devd developers were not in the design teams to provide feedback on what they required.

Simple fact waiting for innovation to settle. Is to wait be left in a stuffed up position and become hard to remain compatible. Linux is currently the dominate market share. BSD have to accept this.

Just like when particular Unix's were the dominate market share that if BSD did not take part in the standard processes they got railroaded. Has not the BSD guys learnt from history they got railroaded with posix standard before linux existed.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Hald is legacy of Unix when it did not support dynamic libraries.


Uhmm..how old do you think HAL is? Older than shared libraries? Seriously?? This amazing ignorance pretty much disqualifies you from being taken even remotely serious on this topic.

Now why is not BSD doing the same.


Becase they dont want systemd? I havent ever heard anyone in BSD complain about systemd not being portable. Heck, BSD and Linux doesnt even use the same starup system now.

Does the BSD service system offer fast startup? Nop


Yep but who cares? its a pointless, penis-measurement metric.

BSD arguement we better wait for the innovation to settle.


That's not a BSD argument or attitude. Now you're just making shit up.

Edited 2011-03-12 06:24 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 7

oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"Hald is legacy of Unix when it did not support dynamic libraries.


Uhmm..how old do you think HAL is? Older than shared libraries? Seriously?? This amazing ignorance pretty much disqualifies you from being taken even remotely serious on this topic.
"
If lack of information is grounds for disqualification you just ruled yourself out.

Hald selection at the time was due to backward compadiblity with Unix's and embed posix systems at the time that did not have shared libraries.

This baggage has to be discarded. Please go back and read the early debates on Hald and you will find a lot of people quoted a lot of older Unix service based designs as well.

Hald is Legacy of Unix is correct. Its the Legacy of the Unix way of doing things before shared libraries.

Not that it existed when all Unixs lacked shared libraries.


"Now why is not BSD doing the same.


Becase they dont want systemd? I havent ever heard anyone in BSD complain about systemd not being portable. Heck, BSD and Linux doesnt even use the same starup system now.
"
systemd is not portable yes. But Launchd where the Linux design for systemd starts has been around for quite awhile and BSD did not take it up or anything matching its speed either.

Simple fact of the issue BSD system is too old. Work is need asp to address many issues. Then more grounds to be talking about sharing can form.

Tech that does not meet todays requirements cannot just keep on being used.


"Does the BSD service system offer fast startup? Nop


Yep but who cares? its a pointless, penis-measurement metric.
"
In fact is not a pointless metric. On devices every second counts. Since that second of runtime is eating into the battery what is the total runtime you have. Slow starting is costly.

Calling it a pointless metric shows how far out of touch you are with todays device requirements. Also people want to flick the power-switch and have a device on almost instantly.

Poor bootup speed is not a fault that can be left.


"BSD arguement we better wait for the innovation to settle.


That's not a BSD argument or attitude. Now you're just making shit up.
"

Then explain why BSD personal have been missing from the shared forums of freedesktop.org. Some of the BSD world have put forwards the argument stated. Not all.

Any putting forward the argument that freedesktop is for Linux or wait for the innovation to settle need sorted out need to be hammered for it.

Edited 2011-03-12 09:07 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

TheGZeus Member since:
2010-05-19

tl;dr

Just write it in your native language. I've done translation work, and speak ~4 languages.
Even if I don't speak your native tongue, I'm sure you can express yourself better in your native tongue, and that I have the skills and/or tools needed to translate it well enough for my own understanding.

As it stands 4 sentences gave me a headache.

I know I don't do very well when trying to talk tech/computers in Japanese. I've tried, and failed pretty spectacularly.
(My comedy style suits Japanese/Japan better, though)

Edited 2011-03-12 06:49 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Hald is legacy of Unix when it did not support dynamic libraries. So there is need for a common dynamic lib to replace hald in some areas. Not a common daemon any more.


Uhm, hald is only a couple of years old. And there were working hardware abstraction / detection layers before it (like devd on FreeBSD).

systemd is based of apple launchd design and expanded on to take advantage of the features Linux kernel offers. Now why is not BSD doing the same.


Because it's not needed? And no one has stepped forward to make a case for it that stood up to even the most basic of questioning.

Does the BSD service system offer fast startup? Nope.


Bzzt, wrong. I can boot a FreeBSD system in under a minute. Of course, I can also boot a Windows XP system in under a minute. And I can configure a Kubuntu station in such a way that it boots in over 2 minutes.

Has linux developers been searching for faster ways to start the system yes. upstart and many other different startup systems to freebsd.


What is everyone's obsession with boot times? If you are rebooting your system so often that you notice a 30s savings ... then you need to reevaluate your setup. Why are you rebooting that often?

Sure, a system boot should not take 15 minutes. But getting to a login screen in 5s, with everything still initialising in the background, isn't anything to brag about either.

I've yet to see anything actually useful in upstart/systemd, other than making it impossible to know exactly how things are working, or to debug things.

There's something to be said for deterministic behaviour (where things always start in the same order and always end up in the same state).

There's something to be said for having a single, human readable *and* human editable text file managing the configuration.

Anyone who says that GRUB2's configuration layout is better than GRUB1's menu.lst seriously needs to get their head examined. upstart vs sysvinit (even with all its warts) is the same. systemd isn't much better (Really? You can't support a system where /usr is a separate filesystem from /? Really? And you don't see a problem with that?)

Innovation is good. Code churn for the sake of code churn is not.

Perhaps if Linux devs put more than 30 minutes of thought into something, actually *designed* something before coding it, sub-systems would last more than 12 months, and downstream projects would actually have time to incorporate all the feature before having to start re-writing things for "new shiny sub-system".

Reply Parent Score: 11

dizzey Member since:
2005-10-15

Why would i not turn of my computer when i im not using it. Power costs money and resources why use more than i need.

using the computer that way fast bootup is nice.
you know not every computer is a server that needs to be up 24/7

Reply Parent Score: 2

renox Member since:
2005-07-06

"Does the BSD service system offer fast startup? Nope.

Bzzt, wrong. I can boot a FreeBSD system in under a minute.
"

You have a strange definition of 'fast', BeOS booted in ~15second (not counting BIOS initialisation) *and* the desktop was responsive even at the beginning.

So in my book, Linux,*BSD and Windows are all booting *slowly*, but it doesn't matter because now you can resume even desktop..

Reply Parent Score: 4

acobar Member since:
2005-11-15

When I saw HAL for the first time I thought "this is garbage" but, somehow it got included on almost every linux distro. Now they are dumping it.

The same thing I thought about pulseaudio and systemd. Specifically on systemd, I really prefer the old method, even if it is a little slower to boot. At least is easy to locate POF and correct them, as you properly said, in very predictable/repetitive steps.

My point is, developers that want to collaborate on very basic subsystems should do a favor to all us and try to do it right from beginning. They should read about what others are doing/using and what are the shortcomings of their implementations. They should try to respect conventions. And they should break compatibility only for a very good reason. All this have been put apart on these "experiments" to fix problematic subsystems on linux.

As is very known on educated circles, "it is better/less frustrating/time saving/wiser to learn from someone else mistakes/success".

Reply Parent Score: 4

pfgbsd Member since:
2011-03-12


systemd is based of apple launchd design and expanded on to take advantage of the features Linux kernel offers. Now why is not BSD doing the same.


The BSDs have had launchd for a while .. in the ports tree. It may just be that for most purposes the traditional BSD system just works OK, and it's not difficult to install something different (like launchd) for those that need it.


BSD developers have sat in one place too long that is the problem. Does the BSD service system offer fast startup? Nop. Has linux developers been searching for faster ways to start the system yes.


FreeBSD has softupdates: some Linux developers were interested but none had the skills to do it. What's wrong about having different interests?


Simple fact waiting for innovation to settle. Is to wait be left in a stuffed up position and become hard to remain compatible. Linux is currently the dominate market share. BSD have to accept this.


The BSDs will not disappear because linux evolves faster into the unknown. some developers actually *like* stable APIs. The linux community has to accept this.

Reply Parent Score: 2

danieldk Member since:
2005-11-18

Soft updates are kludgy and complex. For this reason, soft updates will be removed in NetBSD 6.0:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.os.netbsd.announce/399

Instead, NetBSD will provide FFS with journaling, very much like ext3.

Reply Parent Score: 2