Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Mar 2011 18:59 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y And over the weekend, the saga regarding Canonical, GNOME, and KDE has continued. Lots of comments all over the web, some heated, some well-argued, some wholly indifferent. Most interestingly, Jeff Waugh and Dave Neary have elaborated on GNOME's position after the initial blog posts by Shuttleworth and Seigo, providing a more coherent look at GNOME's side of the story.
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RE[4]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Tue 15th Mar 2011 01:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm
Member since:
2009-05-30

This is more of the same deluded thinking that needs to end.

The Linux kernel is not magic. Both Windows and OSX can run corporate software without any problems. There is no kernel bottleneck with Windows or OSX.

Incorrect as normal. nt_jerkface. Please go and look how you do fully functional real-time support on Windows. There are some major bottlenecks inside windows just like any other OS. In fact one of the biggest disruptions to real-time on x86 archs can becoming from the motherboard. SMM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode Thank you intel for adding something that ruins the platform.

Also a lot of crashes on windows can be traced to kernel mode driver conflicts. Yes there is not magic.

There is also commercial software that installs on many different Linux distributions without issue as well.

The open process has not given the Linux kernel supernatural abilities. This type of thinking reminds me of WWII history where Germans believed their special Teutonic spirit would defeat the allies even when the odds were clearly against them.


Really the open process does not give the kernel supernatural abilities but it does prevent black box connecting to black box equaling untraceable failure.

There are cases of Windows 7 SP1 destroying stored data on harddrives that do directly track to black box + black box equal o my god data loss. The ide controller driver worked perfectly with Windows 7 but the SP1 has changed some of the interfaces locking methods now leading to data lose since the locking in the OS is not what the driver expects any more. Yes you don't need to change the ABI to break drivers from time to time 12 ways from sunday.

Open Process prevents these nightmares. Particular places you don't want black box + black box. Also note for core drivers like this Linux tries to have them all in 1 tree so alteration here does not lead to incompatible there.

Really supernatural abilities is believing that you can connect a stack of black boxs up with each other built to a interface spec and not have something strange to extremely bad not happen from time to time.

OS X and Windows are following a supernatural way of doing things. Yes it works for a while but one day it badly wrong.

nt_jerkface your argument against Linux in a lot of ways is baseless. Main reason why Linux does not have many commercial apps is market-share nothing else. Its not like supporting multi versions of windows is a walk in the park.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[5]: F**k this shit!
by nt_jerkface on Tue 15th Mar 2011 02:15 in reply to "RE[4]: F**k this shit!"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Please go and look how you do fully functional real-time support on Windows.


I think you exaggerate this feature as you have in the past but even at face value it means nothing to 99.9% of corporations or users.

Also a lot of crashes on windows can be traced to kernel mode driver conflicts. Yes there is not magic.


Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.

There are cases of Windows 7 SP1 destroying stored data on harddrives that do directly track to black box + black box equal o my god data loss.


Haven't heard of that. But I do know about the data loss issues with EXT4.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/03/19/1730247/Ext4-Data-Losses-E...

nt_jerkface your argument against Linux in a lot of ways is baseless. Main reason why Linux does not have many commercial apps is market-share nothing else.


Commercial apps like VMServer that have been broken with kernel updates.

As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux. Linux could be more appealing to proprietary software and hardware developers but the people behind it simply don't give a shit. They value open source ideology over market share. That's a fact, not an opinion.

But keep defending the status quo. MS would be upset if Linus & co decided to provide a platform that was proprietary friendly. They like how Linux stays ideological and at 1%. You probably deserve a few dozen copies of Windows 7 for all the defending you do of the status quo. That and a mac mini from Apple.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Tue 15th Mar 2011 02:58 in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"Please go and look how you do fully functional real-time support on Windows.


I think you exaggerate this feature as you have in the past but even at face value it means nothing to 99.9% of corporations or users.
"
When you do that where all the locking issues are that cause people to complain there computer is slow to start up and so on show up really badly.

So no its not a feature 99.9% of users would directly use. But its more picky to the issues. You know something has gone badly wrong when the only way to make it work is basically embed another kernel inside.

OS X and Linux kernel both can be made operate real-time. Neither has major design flaws any more preventing it. And where those flaws are are in source code you can alter. Hello OS X kernel is part open source. There is no reason why key low levels of Windows OS's could not be released open source as well to prevent nightmares. These are preventable errors.

There are reasons why I don't tar OS X completely with the same brush as Windows. At least some sane selections in the Apple camp have been done on what has to be closed source.

"Also a lot of crashes on windows can be traced to kernel mode driver conflicts. Yes there is not magic.


Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.
"
Linux driver issues are all basically in 1 spot mostly drivers in development or drivers developed in black box method so touchy to any kernel alteration. Yes I have spoke in person to Thom.

Windows they are all over the place. Some are really funny. Like insert a usb device that is not defective or tampered with into a particular machine and watch the machine reboot. Usb controller and device driver for the usb device you just plugged in conflit. Leave the device in the machine will remain in a never ending reboot cycle until its removed. Change either of the usb controller or the device drivers and problem disappears. Yes its very much with windows do you fell lucky.

"There are cases of Windows 7 SP1 destroying stored data on harddrives that do directly track to black box + black box equal o my god data loss.


Haven't heard of that. But I do know about the data loss issues with EXT4.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/03/19/1730247/Ext4-Data-Losses-E...
"
How often are you going to bring this up. At the time Ext4 was not marked production ready. It was marked testing. If you are dumb enough to format a drive ext4 in 2009 and you lose your data because it was not tested who fault is that. The persons who used a filesystem before testing was complete for data.

Its like saying running a beta copy of windows and it screwed up and eats you data its Microsoft fault. Sorry no its not.

Of course if the same fault happened this year I would be out for the maintainers blood. Because a fault like that should not happen.

"nt_jerkface your argument against Linux in a lot of ways is baseless. Main reason why Linux does not have many commercial apps is market-share nothing else.


Commercial apps like VMServer that have been broken with kernel updates.
"
VMServer also was broken on OS X, Windows and Linux at different times due to kernel updates. This is not a Linux Unique issue.

Of course you don't mention that VMServer has regularly failed on all. Black box in kernel space a risk of failure. VMware in recent times have been working more with mainline Linux and the failure rates are reducing. In fact to lower rates of fail per year under Linux then and OS X or Windows.

Also you most likely want to forget the big one where all MS clients running inside VMServer failed completely due to a Windows update recently. Yes the clients become incompatible with VMServer paravirtalisation drivers.

So really you want a direct example of why not blackbox you don't have to do anything else then chart VMServer failures per platform against how black box the platform is to VMware.


As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux. Linux could be more appealing to proprietary software and hardware developers but the people behind it simply don't give a shit. They value open source ideology over market share. That's a fact, not an opinion.


Big error. iphone core OS is same as OS X. Lot of small applications from OS X could port to iphone without much recoding.

Android has also taken off with commercial applications and it has a Linux kernel. So any kernel design selection has Zero effect on if commercial makers will make for Linux or not.


But keep defending the status quo. MS would be upset if Linus & co decided to provide a platform that was proprietary friendly. They like how Linux stays ideological and at 1%. You probably deserve a few dozen copies of Windows 7 for all the defending you do of the status quo. That and a mac mini from Apple.


Linus is the kernel maintainer. Android disproves you point solid. Application developers for over 99 percent of cases don't need drivers custom for them or anything custom in kernel.

Have distributions made it too hard at times for commercials. I have not defended that. Also redhat has more closed source commercial applications from third parties alone while iphone was a small marketshare.

So its a pure myth that Linux does not have closed source applications.

The major reason for people not being on for linux desktop pc can be addressed in 2 words. Microsoft Office. The defacto standard that has become. Platform compatibility issues.

There is another issue on Linux. Nero struck it head on. The simple problem was feature wise open source k3b had more features and better features than nero burning software. So releasing nero on Linux that does exist has a 15 dollar max price tag and almost never sells.

Linux huge pool of open source applications so not leaving much room for large numbers of commerical applications.

Google and HP(android/web os) solution break the api to give commercial applications a chance. Yes creating a short fall(ie clean slate) has shown how mythical lot of arguments to explain Linux lack of closed source applications is.

Final point what has prevented comercial applications makers for joining up and making there own unified framework to run their applications on Linux.

That right there bitter rivalry. About time you start doing the blame correctly.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by Valhalla on Tue 15th Mar 2011 08:21 in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.

If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers. I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.

As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux.

Totally different market segments, I'm pretty sure companies realises that targeting Linux desktop with 'fart apps' would be a commercial suicide, just like they aren't targeting the Windows desktop with it either.

Linux has a small desktop market share, which is reflected in the amount of commercial software available for it. However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit. If the market is there then so are the apps. Just look at 3D/SFX, Linux is huge there and that is why all the latest versions of commercial top applications like Maya, XSI, Mudbox, Houdini, Nuke, Renderman, etc are available for Linux.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.

Reply Parent Score: 4