Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Mar 2011 18:59 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y And over the weekend, the saga regarding Canonical, GNOME, and KDE has continued. Lots of comments all over the web, some heated, some well-argued, some wholly indifferent. Most interestingly, Jeff Waugh and Dave Neary have elaborated on GNOME's position after the initial blog posts by Shuttleworth and Seigo, providing a more coherent look at GNOME's side of the story.
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RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Tue 15th Mar 2011 02:58 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm
Member since:
2009-05-30

"Please go and look how you do fully functional real-time support on Windows.


I think you exaggerate this feature as you have in the past but even at face value it means nothing to 99.9% of corporations or users.
"
When you do that where all the locking issues are that cause people to complain there computer is slow to start up and so on show up really badly.

So no its not a feature 99.9% of users would directly use. But its more picky to the issues. You know something has gone badly wrong when the only way to make it work is basically embed another kernel inside.

OS X and Linux kernel both can be made operate real-time. Neither has major design flaws any more preventing it. And where those flaws are are in source code you can alter. Hello OS X kernel is part open source. There is no reason why key low levels of Windows OS's could not be released open source as well to prevent nightmares. These are preventable errors.

There are reasons why I don't tar OS X completely with the same brush as Windows. At least some sane selections in the Apple camp have been done on what has to be closed source.

"Also a lot of crashes on windows can be traced to kernel mode driver conflicts. Yes there is not magic.


Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.
"
Linux driver issues are all basically in 1 spot mostly drivers in development or drivers developed in black box method so touchy to any kernel alteration. Yes I have spoke in person to Thom.

Windows they are all over the place. Some are really funny. Like insert a usb device that is not defective or tampered with into a particular machine and watch the machine reboot. Usb controller and device driver for the usb device you just plugged in conflit. Leave the device in the machine will remain in a never ending reboot cycle until its removed. Change either of the usb controller or the device drivers and problem disappears. Yes its very much with windows do you fell lucky.

"There are cases of Windows 7 SP1 destroying stored data on harddrives that do directly track to black box + black box equal o my god data loss.


Haven't heard of that. But I do know about the data loss issues with EXT4.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/03/19/1730247/Ext4-Data-Losses-E...
"
How often are you going to bring this up. At the time Ext4 was not marked production ready. It was marked testing. If you are dumb enough to format a drive ext4 in 2009 and you lose your data because it was not tested who fault is that. The persons who used a filesystem before testing was complete for data.

Its like saying running a beta copy of windows and it screwed up and eats you data its Microsoft fault. Sorry no its not.

Of course if the same fault happened this year I would be out for the maintainers blood. Because a fault like that should not happen.

"nt_jerkface your argument against Linux in a lot of ways is baseless. Main reason why Linux does not have many commercial apps is market-share nothing else.


Commercial apps like VMServer that have been broken with kernel updates.
"
VMServer also was broken on OS X, Windows and Linux at different times due to kernel updates. This is not a Linux Unique issue.

Of course you don't mention that VMServer has regularly failed on all. Black box in kernel space a risk of failure. VMware in recent times have been working more with mainline Linux and the failure rates are reducing. In fact to lower rates of fail per year under Linux then and OS X or Windows.

Also you most likely want to forget the big one where all MS clients running inside VMServer failed completely due to a Windows update recently. Yes the clients become incompatible with VMServer paravirtalisation drivers.

So really you want a direct example of why not blackbox you don't have to do anything else then chart VMServer failures per platform against how black box the platform is to VMware.


As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux. Linux could be more appealing to proprietary software and hardware developers but the people behind it simply don't give a shit. They value open source ideology over market share. That's a fact, not an opinion.


Big error. iphone core OS is same as OS X. Lot of small applications from OS X could port to iphone without much recoding.

Android has also taken off with commercial applications and it has a Linux kernel. So any kernel design selection has Zero effect on if commercial makers will make for Linux or not.


But keep defending the status quo. MS would be upset if Linus & co decided to provide a platform that was proprietary friendly. They like how Linux stays ideological and at 1%. You probably deserve a few dozen copies of Windows 7 for all the defending you do of the status quo. That and a mac mini from Apple.


Linus is the kernel maintainer. Android disproves you point solid. Application developers for over 99 percent of cases don't need drivers custom for them or anything custom in kernel.

Have distributions made it too hard at times for commercials. I have not defended that. Also redhat has more closed source commercial applications from third parties alone while iphone was a small marketshare.

So its a pure myth that Linux does not have closed source applications.

The major reason for people not being on for linux desktop pc can be addressed in 2 words. Microsoft Office. The defacto standard that has become. Platform compatibility issues.

There is another issue on Linux. Nero struck it head on. The simple problem was feature wise open source k3b had more features and better features than nero burning software. So releasing nero on Linux that does exist has a 15 dollar max price tag and almost never sells.

Linux huge pool of open source applications so not leaving much room for large numbers of commerical applications.

Google and HP(android/web os) solution break the api to give commercial applications a chance. Yes creating a short fall(ie clean slate) has shown how mythical lot of arguments to explain Linux lack of closed source applications is.

Final point what has prevented comercial applications makers for joining up and making there own unified framework to run their applications on Linux.

That right there bitter rivalry. About time you start doing the blame correctly.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by nt_jerkface on Wed 16th Mar 2011 18:38 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


VMServer also was broken on OS X, Windows and Linux at different times due to kernel updates. This is not a Linux Unique issue.


Making stuff up again. I'd like to hear of these cases where VMServer was broken on Windows Server due to kernel updates.

I can source numerous breaks with kernel updates; rebuilding vmware kernel modules is a standard affair for Linux.

In fact to lower rates of fail per year under Linux then and OS X or Windows.


That's a big fat lie.

Big error. iphone core OS is same as OS X. Lot of small applications from OS X could port to iphone without much recoding.


Most iphone games are not available for OS X.

Android has also taken off with commercial applications and it has a Linux kernel. So any kernel design selection has Zero effect on if commercial makers will make for Linux or not.


Android is a completely different subject. It's designed by engineers who actually want to build a platform that encourages development of both proprietary and open source applications.

Linus is the kernel maintainer. Android disproves you point solid. Application developers for over 99 percent of cases don't need drivers custom for them or anything custom in kernel.

I'm not mixing kernel and application development problems, they just happen to intersect in some areas. The main problem with Linux distros is that their distribution systems are designed around open source.

Also redhat has more closed source commercial applications from third parties alone while iphone was a small marketshare.


Server applications that are mostly command line or output to a webpage. Those companies only need to target a single distro and their customers are server admins that don't expect the same level of usability. It's a completely different market and one that works.

So its a pure myth that Linux does not have closed source applications.


I never once claimed that it doesn't. Linux is a PITA for companies like EA Games. That's what it comes down to.

The major reason for people not being on for linux desktop pc can be addressed in 2 words. Microsoft Office. The defacto standard that has become. Platform compatibility issues.


That is a major factor but even on netbooks where MS Office is not expected Linux has caused too many problems for new users.

There is another issue on Linux. Nero struck it head on. The simple problem was feature wise open source k3b had more features and better features than nero burning software. So releasing nero on Linux that does exist has a 15 dollar max price tag and almost never sells.


Um that's nice, Linux has a lousy game selection so it's not as if all bases are covered.

Linux huge pool of open source applications so not leaving much room for large numbers of commerical applications.


Except for a docx compatible office suite, tax software, bookkeeping software, video editing, and more. The best open source applications get ported to Windows so I really don't see what your point is.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by Nth_Man on Wed 16th Mar 2011 19:02 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

open source applications get ported to Windows

Nice! So Windows users will be able to avoid programs that put them into vendor lock-ins, they will be able to improve the program, study its source code, inspect it, etc. When they get rid of monopolies, periodic forced pays for doing basically the same as they were doing before, maybe some ways of thinking will change.

Reply Parent Score: 3

Pool of open source applications
by Nth_Man on Wed 16th Mar 2011 19:32 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

> > Linux huge pool of open source applications so not
> > leaving much room for large numbers of commercial
> > applications.

> Except for a docx compatible office suite,
Linux "office" programs can open most documents, but not all. That's a usual thing, changing the format of documents and keeping some things secret... is an old way to keep a vendor lock-in and force users.

> tax software, bookkeeping software
That depends on the country, so my particular case would be of no use to most of people.

> video editing, and more.
I've used Kdenlive with good results to cut "ads" from saved tv shows, resize the videos and so on. It also can add titles, transitions, effects, etc. Enough for me and for most of people. It also has a lot of more capabilities and is being used in professional places. We can see more in http://www.kdenlive.org/features

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Thu 17th Mar 2011 00:06 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"
VMServer also was broken on OS X, Windows and Linux at different times due to kernel updates. This is not a Linux Unique issue.


Making stuff up again. I'd like to hear of these cases where VMServer was broken on Windows Server due to kernel updates.

I can source numerous breaks with kernel updates; rebuilding vmware kernel modules is a standard affair for Linux.

In fact to lower rates of fail per year under Linux then and OS X or Windows.


That's a big fat lie.
"
To be correct its not a lie. Of course people don't read that vmware is only tested with the longterm release versions. Vmware on Linux long term kernel is many times better than Vmware on windows due to the poor quality of a lot of MS third party drivers. I really don't count non enterprise distributions that serve up crap as Linux. Since they are not obeying the policies of the Linux Kernel they are not Linux in my eyes. They should not be Linux in anyone eyes. They should be just a pack of incompetence to stay clear of.

Any user using a distribution not working well with upstream should expect to be hurt.


"Big error. iphone core OS is same as OS X. Lot of small applications from OS X could port to iphone without much recoding.


Most iphone games are not available for OS X.

Android has also taken off with commercial applications and it has a Linux kernel. So any kernel design selection has Zero effect on if commercial makers will make for Linux or not.


Android is a completely different subject. It's designed by engineers who actually want to build a platform that encourages development of both proprietary and open source applications.
"
No it was also design to not compatible with existing open source applications and that is for reason under.


"Linux huge pool of open source applications so not leaving much room for large numbers of commerical applications.


Except for a docx compatible office suite, tax software, bookkeeping software, video editing, and more. The best open source applications get ported to Windows so I really don't see what your point is.
"

Let do some basics here. Yes there are in fact 4 closed source office suites for Linux that do docx. Most all EU. There is closed source bookkeeping software for Linux. Video editing you hit a true weakness but that is being addressed.

Items Like nero that failed to sell on Linux are held up as examples that Linux personal with not pay for software. The result is a lot of bookkeeping software is available server only on Linux. Since Nero who is a bigger company than a lot of bookkeeping software making companies could not make a go of it they will not try. Because in their eyes something open source like k3b could jump up and take their lunch.

Seriously something like K3b jumping up and taking there lunch is something software makers better get use to.

In video editing lightworks is going threw the process of becoming open source and for all platforms. This effectively renders most video editing software in the higher end no longer required.

So Yes video editing lunch is about to be completely eaten.

Ok K3B find me a port on Windows that any normal windows user might install. Current windows installer is 1Gb plus. Some of the best Linux applications really don't want to port to Windows. The idea that all the best open source applications have made it to windows is false. And even so some of them due to the differences in windows will always be more suited to a Linux environment. Windows memory management and Linux is different and some of the highend applications simply don't like Windows memory management so run slower and crash more often on Windows. That is closed and open source. This is why 3d rendering workstations are more often than not Linux or OS X not windows. Even OS X has its bug of amount of memory a single application can allocate.

So unless MS does a radical overhall there will always been those applications were you are nuts to run on Windows due to windows design flaws. Just like there are some classes of applications at the moment you would also be nuts to try to run on Linux due to its design flaws.

IE no OS can run the best of everything at this stage.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by Soulbender on Thu 17th Mar 2011 05:36 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Linux is a PITA for companies like EA Games. That's what it comes down to.


Back in the day EA (like 20 years ago) had no problem porting to a myriad of platforms. Ah, the good old 80's when there was actually competition. Yeah yeah, I know games nowadays are more complicated, requires more manpower etc etc. That's all valid points.
On the other hand, there are OSS and commercial game development platforms that provides easy cross-platform deployment.

Except for a docx compatible office suit


I cant remember having any problems open docx on OOo.

Edited 2011-03-17 05:39 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3