Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Mar 2011 18:59 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y And over the weekend, the saga regarding Canonical, GNOME, and KDE has continued. Lots of comments all over the web, some heated, some well-argued, some wholly indifferent. Most interestingly, Jeff Waugh and Dave Neary have elaborated on GNOME's position after the initial blog posts by Shuttleworth and Seigo, providing a more coherent look at GNOME's side of the story.
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RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by Valhalla on Tue 15th Mar 2011 08:21 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
Valhalla
Member since:
2006-01-24

Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.

If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers. I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.

As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux.

Totally different market segments, I'm pretty sure companies realises that targeting Linux desktop with 'fart apps' would be a commercial suicide, just like they aren't targeting the Windows desktop with it either.

Linux has a small desktop market share, which is reflected in the amount of commercial software available for it. However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit. If the market is there then so are the apps. Just look at 3D/SFX, Linux is huge there and that is why all the latest versions of commercial top applications like Maya, XSI, Mudbox, Houdini, Nuke, Renderman, etc are available for Linux.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by lucas_maximus on Tue 15th Mar 2011 15:45 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Linux has a small desktop market share, which is reflected in the amount of commercial software available for it. However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit. If the market is there then so are the apps. Just look at 3D/SFX, Linux is huge there and that is why all the latest versions of commercial top applications like Maya, XSI, Mudbox, Houdini, Nuke, Renderman, etc are available for Linux.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.


All this proves is that Linux is primarily use by people with a high level of technical proficiency or where the core OS can be hidden by the user (such as Android Devices).

There will never be a market for it anywhere else because of core usabililty issues.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by nt_jerkface on Tue 15th Mar 2011 23:39 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?


Yes I would, he has an interest in alternative operating systems and has given Linux a fair trial on numerous occasions. From the way he writes I can tell that he wants to like Linux but has had too many problems with it. He sure as hell is no Paul Thurott.

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers.


XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.


Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise. The problem is not with the actual Linux drivers but a kernel level driver model that is not designed around end users or hardware companies.

Totally different market segments, I'm pretty sure companies realises that targeting Linux desktop with 'fart apps' would be a commercial suicide, just like they aren't targeting the Windows desktop with it either.


Fart apps? There are hundreds of full length games on the iphone. Why isn't The Sims 3 available for Linux? It is on every other platform including the iphone.

However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit.


No distro is trying to cater to proprietary developers. They have software distribution systems that are designed around open source. Ubuntu has been moving towards supporting proprietary developers but is still centered around the repository system which favors open source.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.


Linux is used in rendering farms but is a minority platform when it comes to desktop drawing.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by smitty on Wed 16th Mar 2011 01:32 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Why isn't The Sims 3 available for Linux?

Please tell me you don't think this is due to not having a stable kernel ABI. Please? Userspace apps like games do have a stable interface.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Wed 16th Mar 2011 03:53 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?


Yes I would, he has an interest in alternative operating systems and has given Linux a fair trial on numerous occasions. From the way he writes I can tell that he wants to like Linux but has had too many problems with it. He sure as hell is no Paul Thurott.

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers.


XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.


Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise. The problem is not with the actual Linux drivers but a kernel level driver model that is not designed around end users or hardware companies.
"

The problem here is what you call a minor upgrades.

2.6.37 to 2.6.38 is technically not a minor upgrade this is a kernel rework equal to the kernel change between 2003 and 2008 server. Yes the number of alterations to kernel between 2.6.37 to 2.6.38 that happened in 3 months is about the same number of alterations that happened between 2003 and 2008.

2.6.35.1-11 all are minor upgrades. This is a longterm kernel minor upgrades on it don't break things. These are all driver compatible if distribution build them all with the same compiler no issues.

Finally there are the Ubuntu's out there. Who apply 12 megs + of non upstream patches that hardware makers don't normally see first. Then people wonder why they get a black eye.

Lets blame Linux its simpler. Than blaming the distribution that they are using for be incompetent and not giving me warning that they are just doing a major OS upgrade that could turn my computer into swiss cheese and have hidden the boot loader so making it hard to swap back to the prior kernel that worked. Yes skin save in a lot of cases. Upgrade failed switch back.

Problem is distributions and users not understanding the differences. Made worse by users blaming the wrong party. Upstream Linux does provide points of stable API. They need distributions to provide stable compiler for ABI.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by Soulbender on Wed 16th Mar 2011 04:27 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

It is on every other platform including the iphone.


To paraphrase another thread....
I can only recommend developers to try to hack with only Windows in mind and experience the freedom and the opportunities this offers you. So get yourself a copy of Windows Game Programming With DirectX, ignore everything it says about other operating systems and hack away your amazing Windows games.

Edited 2011-03-16 04:28 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by Valhalla on Wed 16th Mar 2011 07:03 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

Yes I would, he has an interest in alternative operating systems and has given Linux a fair trial on numerous occasions.

By what metric? I would say though, that he is not quite as partial as he is with the xbox360 vs ps3 coverage which is insanely biased.

XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

So? Microsoft get's a carte blanche because they release new versions very seldom and thus breakage is to be expected?

Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise.

I'm assuming you are talking about 'binary blob' drivers, which can break due to changes in the kernel ABI/API. And certainly that can be a problem if you live on the bleeding edge, and the providers of said binary blobs are not up to speed. Having been using a 'rolling' distribution (Arch Linux) for a couple of years, I've yet to see my only binary blob dependancy (NVidia) to lag with providing up-to-date binaries, but afaik they are very good at this so maybe they are not representative. But since all other hardware I use is supported straight out of the kernel, I've had no problems when upgrading (technically NVidia is supported through Noveau aswell which would allow me to omit binary blobs altogether, but there is quite a performance difference for my card).

Why isn't The Sims 3 available for Linux? It is on every other platform including the iphone.

Because of market share, again it's not a problem shipping proprietary products (with DRM no less) onto Linux if the market is there, hence the strong showing of 3D/SFX software available (which all contain DRM mechanisms). But the desktop market just isn't big enough to warrant interest from the big players in say, the game industry. That's not to say that they don't sell to Linux users though, Wine makes it possible to reach Linux users without paying a penny to do so, 3d hardware acceleration together with virtualization is another option but that requires the need of a guest operating system.

No distro is trying to cater to proprietary developers.

The only thing I can think of here is that there isn't any automated way to push DRM onto end user systems, which isn't really an issue since a binary distribution can easily setup their own DRM (you know, like commercial software does on Windows), which is also what's being done on those aforementioned 3D/SFX packages for Linux. Apart from that, how are repositories discriminating towards proprietary software?

Linux is used in rendering farms but is a minority platform when it comes to desktop drawing.

No, that's no longer the case and hasn't been for quite some time. This is the reason we are seeing native Linux ports of pure modeling/sculpting programs like Mudbox, which unlike ZBrush had performance problems running under wine. Of course programs like Maya/XSI already provided native modeling capacity for Linux. But you are right that Linux as render farms is what opened the flood-gates for Linux within that industry, given the results it didn't take long before companies wanted to run their entire pipeline through Linux, which is what has resulted in Linux being so well-catered in this area.

Reply Parent Score: 4