Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Mar 2011 18:59 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y And over the weekend, the saga regarding Canonical, GNOME, and KDE has continued. Lots of comments all over the web, some heated, some well-argued, some wholly indifferent. Most interestingly, Jeff Waugh and Dave Neary have elaborated on GNOME's position after the initial blog posts by Shuttleworth and Seigo, providing a more coherent look at GNOME's side of the story.
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RE[5]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Tue 15th Mar 2011 10:46 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm
Member since:
2009-05-30

"
There are all ways to create drivers using the stable kernel to user-space interface. Now the question becomes why do you need a Kernel ABI in the first place other than the Userspace one?


Education. But I do not think that Hardware manufacturers are ignorant of this information. I am not a developer of this level not to mention being a driver developer, but why is it that most Printer/Scanner/peripherals etc have no Linux driver by default, if they can write it easily using the userpace without touching GPL?
"

Printer and Scanner drivers on all platforms are user space. No kernel mode part on any. So yes there is no excuse other than deciding that Linux is too small of market share to support.

Another thing a lot of people are not aware is that OS X and Linux use the same printer service struct. Yet there are drivers for OS X and no drivers for the same printer for Linux from the hardware maker. Cannon excuse is lack of means provide userspace applications. But really the two drivers would be basically the same source code with minor alterations.

Also some is MS interference. Before MS Novell deal. Novell was working on providing the interface to take MS Windows drivers for printers and use them directly under Linux so solving that problem. They stopped work on that the very day the contract with Microsoft was signed.

Also under Vista+ there is technically no reason for usb devices to have a driver in kernel space at all. Yet hardware makers are still releasing drivers using kernel space under windows for Vista and 7 for usb drivers so causing unstable states and bad outcomes. Reason its cheaper they don't have to redo there code base from XP. Yes the issue of lack of or badly written is not restricted to Linux.

There is also the nightmare under windows where 1 device can have 50 different drivers even that its the same device it all depends who brand is on the device what driver you get.

Yes Linux is the same with USB drivers as windows no need for kernel space. PCI and PCI-E don't have to be kernel space either under Linux. But windows that might be asking too much. PCI and PCI-E passed to userspace is why virtual machines under Linux can pass PCI and PCI-E cards to contained OS untouched.

In the open source world if the hardware makers will release the specs most cases they don't have to write drivers. Also releasing the specs would allow consumers to see that X product here for 200 dollars is the same product over here for 20 dollars just with a different company brand on it. Yes Consumers are being ripped off all the way to the bank and getting inferior quality drivers at the same time. Yes this is a major issue why some hardware makers don't want to work with open source. It unmasks the truth.

As soon as you start talking kernel space and drivers. You are talking a pandoras box where a lot of parties don't want you to start looking. Because a lot of the unstable you suffer from is magically explained. And the fact you are being ripped of by particular hardware makers becomes clear as day.

It very simple to try to just blame Linux for its poor driver support. The big thing to be aware is that its not Linux alone. Its hardware makers who don't want the truth out there of there hardware.

Like every HP scanner and printer on the shelf today has perfectly support under Linux today as open source. Every brother printer on the shelf you could buy today has perfect support for linux as a binary driver. Ok bit of a tricky driver to install but its provided.(Yes they need to work on there install method language so a normal human could understand it).

These are not reversed support. Final argument is lack of market share. But with the slap shot support I see for Vista and 7. I Have to say 90 percent of the reason is profit making nothing more at the buyers expense.

Yes that Linux can do it does not matter they just will not spend the money or give the open source world the specs so they can do it themselves.

Nt supporters like nt_facejerk don't really want people to be aware of the truth. Since people aware of the truth might start asking for full interface specs to products and other nasty things.

Interesting thing here as well. I have found hardware makers who provide open source drivers more often maintain better quality drivers for Windows. Yes that a bit of hardware runs under Linux should be seen as a good sign that you will have less trouble under windows with that device compared to the device sitting next to it that does not support Linux.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by phoenix on Tue 15th Mar 2011 15:34 in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Another thing a lot of people are not aware is that OS X and Linux use the same printer service struct.


Known as CUPS.

Yet there are drivers for OS X and no drivers for the same printer for Linux from the hardware maker.


A CUPS PPD file works on any system running CUPS, so long as no extra binaries/filters are needed. I've used MacOS X PPD files on Linux and on FreeBSD without any issues.

Cannon excuse is lack of means provide userspace applications. But really the two drivers would be basically the same source code with minor alterations.


A "CUPS driver" that needs extra binaries is not a true CUPS printer driver, and it's those drivers (like SpliX, HPLIP, etc) that cause problems with cross-OS support.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Tue 15th Mar 2011 21:43 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"Another thing a lot of people are not aware is that OS X and Linux use the same printer service struct.


Known as CUPS.

Yet there are drivers for OS X and no drivers for the same printer for Linux from the hardware maker.


A CUPS PPD file works on any system running CUPS, so long as no extra binaries/filters are needed. I've used MacOS X PPD files on Linux and on FreeBSD without any issues.

Cannon excuse is lack of means provide userspace applications. But really the two drivers would be basically the same source code with minor alterations.


A "CUPS driver" that needs extra binaries is not a true CUPS printer driver, and it's those drivers (like SpliX, HPLIP, etc) that cause problems with cross-OS support.
"
Please read CUPS specs. CUPS printer drivers are allows to include platform dependent interface parts to talk protocols these are called cup filters.

Cups driver without its matching Cups filter requirements is a paperweight.

Yes its still a Cups driver if its dependent on a filter. Since filter support is build into cups driver design.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by Almost_Freetarded on Wed 16th Mar 2011 20:50 in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
Almost_Freetarded Member since:
2011-03-16


Also releasing the specs would allow consumers to see that X product here for 200 dollars is the same product over here for 20 dollars just with a different company brand on it.


Bullshit! What the heck have you in mind? I don't know any hardware that fits into your description:

Graphics cards? No. The costly part is the chip, and the chip is always either from Intel, Nvidia or AMD.

Hard disks? No
Chipsets? Same as with graphics cards.

Printers? Sorry no, there IS a difference between a $200 cannon and some $20 no name.


Also some is MS interference. Before MS Novell deal. Novell was working on providing the interface to take MS Windows drivers for printers and use them directly under Linux so solving that problem. They stopped work on that the very day the contract with Microsoft was signed.


Boohoo. Where is the basement developer army? So Loonix needs ebil Nov€ll now? According to Queen Pamela Jones, Nov€ll was ebil before they signed the deal with M$ anyway. How can you use something so tainted?

There is also the nightmare under windows where 1 device can have 50 different drivers even that its the same device it all depends who brand is on the device what driver you get.


And most of them work. Where is the problem actually? As if it is a common scenario that users have so many versions of the same hardware.

Nt supporters like nt_facejerk don't really want people to be aware of the truth. Since people aware of the truth might start asking for full interface specs to products and other nasty things.


Stop deluding yourself. What full interface specs? The people who care know what needs to be known already. Haven't you never noticed the tons of hardware sites like Tomshardware.com? And the ones who don't bother won't bother anyway.

I have found hardware makers who provide open source drivers more often maintain better quality drivers for Windows


Easy. It's because vendors who can afford to support Windows and Linux are usually not some poor mom&pop shop.

Are you seriously claiming that they gain some leet programming skillz just by creating a Linux driver?

OOOPS! I used the word "creating". One of the words to avoid:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html

Sorry.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Thu 17th Mar 2011 00:58 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"
Also releasing the specs would allow consumers to see that X product here for 200 dollars is the same product over here for 20 dollars just with a different company brand on it.


Bullshit! What the heck have you in mind? I don't know any hardware that fits into your description:

Graphics cards? No. The costly part is the chip, and the chip is always either from Intel, Nvidia or AMD.

Hard disks? No
Chipsets? Same as with graphics cards.

Printers? Sorry no, there IS a difference between a $200 cannon and some $20 no name.
"
$20 to $200 happens in webcams and secuirty cams at times. Where in fact they are exactly the same chip exactly the same optics from exactly the same factory. Even the case is from the same factory only thing different is the branding.

Also scanners are another location with same chipset scaning head metal frame of scanner and circuit board are shipped to customer in a different plastic case with different branding on it at major-ally different prices.

Note all these devices have something in common when you read the spec sheets they are normally devoid of the what inside. They have physical shape and number of dpi/pixels. Yes small items people are not paying attention to they are getting ripped off on.

Lot of DVD-Rom and Blueray drives branded to be from different makers are in fact out the same factory and tested to the same quality standards so that 20 dollar price difference on the self for the drive could be nothing more than a brand payment. Same with floppy drives and particular power supplies.

Items like video cards, motherboards, harddrives and printers people normally pay more attention to. But even in video cards reading makers specs for the chip on them would warn you that particular video cards that are running faster then another card are in fact overclocked and is going to have a short life.

So yes you are paying more money for a video card that will burn out sooner. When another card that is a different chipset next to it that is running at the same speed same price is not overlocked so will last.

Consumer is getting ripped off many ways its not funny because they really don't have the information to make correct selections.

"Also some is MS interference. Before MS Novell deal. Novell was working on providing the interface to take MS Windows drivers for printers and use them directly under Linux so solving that problem. They stopped work on that the very day the contract with Microsoft was signed.


Boohoo. Where is the basement developer army? So Loonix needs ebil Nov€ll now? According to Queen Pamela Jones, Nov€ll was ebil before they signed the deal with M$ anyway. How can you use something so tainted?
"
Staff working on it were pre Novell from SUSE. Not everyone in Novell is evil.

"There is also the nightmare under windows where 1 device can have 50 different drivers even that its the same device it all depends who brand is on the device what driver you get.


And most of them work. Where is the problem actually? As if it is a common scenario that users have so many versions of the same hardware.
"
In fact with webcams of the same chipset most of them don't work properly(Ie the work enough that the web cam appears to function). They cause random untraceable computer crashes. Lot of these I have solved for windows users by going to Linux and finding out what Linux driver runs the device then making way back to the company that made the chip inside the device and get there current driver and tweak its usb ids so it works under windows. Yes ATI and Nvidia are 100 times simpler to make it back to the chipset maker and get the generic driver that works.

This is your problem. People complain about windows being unstable. Lot of cases its these poor quality drivers or computer was assembled without doing basic things like checking ram with a memory testing software as per many ram makers instructions in fact.

"Nt supporters like nt_facejerk don't really want people to be aware of the truth. Since people aware of the truth might start asking for full interface specs to products and other nasty things.


Stop deluding yourself. What full interface specs? The people who care know what needs to be known already. Haven't you never noticed the tons of hardware sites like Tomshardware.com? And the ones who don't bother won't bother anyway.
"
Tomshardware does not tell you the maker of the chipset inside. Even the groups that disassemble the devices in a lot of cases cannot tell you due to chip over branding or production of chip not being done by party that designed it. The Full interface specs might start being asked by Tomshardware and others so users can get generic drivers that work. Not snapshots of generic drivers that have not been updated. Of course it would be simpler of course if device makers just started being more truthful the design of X device is from here refer to them for third party drivers.

"I have found hardware makers who provide open source drivers more often maintain better quality drivers for Windows


Easy. It's because vendors who can afford to support Windows and Linux are usually not some poor mom&pop shop.

Are you seriously claiming that they gain some leet programming skillz just by creating a Linux driver?
"
No I am not. It not leet programming skills. Its called peer review. Key point of science. Without peer review you are talking alchemy methods.

Producing dependable results peer review is a good process. Errors that otherwise would be missed get spoted. Yes lot of cases the windows closed source driver and the Linux open source driver share common code. So any peer review error seen in the open source driver ends up fixing the windows one. Also since open source driver exists.

The difference exists due to processes that happen. Does not matter how large or small the company is. You can even seen a difference inside the same company between 2 devices made by them one with and one without open source drivers made by them. Just you have not been looking.

Company deciding to kill support for profit also is reduced by open source driver existing. Ie don't make a windows 7 drive for X device so people have to buy Y device. Many or many not work if an open source driver exists but if it don't work it will make them look really foolish. So this leads to devices with open source drivers have longer life span usable on windows and maintained longer.

This is the big problem. People don't want to get open source drivers help windows users as well as Linux OS X and other platforms.

That is the simple facts of the mess.

Reply Parent Score: 2