Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Mar 2011 18:59 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y And over the weekend, the saga regarding Canonical, GNOME, and KDE has continued. Lots of comments all over the web, some heated, some well-argued, some wholly indifferent. Most interestingly, Jeff Waugh and Dave Neary have elaborated on GNOME's position after the initial blog posts by Shuttleworth and Seigo, providing a more coherent look at GNOME's side of the story.
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RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by nt_jerkface on Tue 15th Mar 2011 23:39 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
nt_jerkface
Member since:
2009-08-26

If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?


Yes I would, he has an interest in alternative operating systems and has given Linux a fair trial on numerous occasions. From the way he writes I can tell that he wants to like Linux but has had too many problems with it. He sure as hell is no Paul Thurott.

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers.


XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.


Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise. The problem is not with the actual Linux drivers but a kernel level driver model that is not designed around end users or hardware companies.

Totally different market segments, I'm pretty sure companies realises that targeting Linux desktop with 'fart apps' would be a commercial suicide, just like they aren't targeting the Windows desktop with it either.


Fart apps? There are hundreds of full length games on the iphone. Why isn't The Sims 3 available for Linux? It is on every other platform including the iphone.

However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit.


No distro is trying to cater to proprietary developers. They have software distribution systems that are designed around open source. Ubuntu has been moving towards supporting proprietary developers but is still centered around the repository system which favors open source.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.


Linux is used in rendering farms but is a minority platform when it comes to desktop drawing.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by smitty on Wed 16th Mar 2011 01:32 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Why isn't The Sims 3 available for Linux?

Please tell me you don't think this is due to not having a stable kernel ABI. Please? Userspace apps like games do have a stable interface.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Wed 16th Mar 2011 03:53 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?


Yes I would, he has an interest in alternative operating systems and has given Linux a fair trial on numerous occasions. From the way he writes I can tell that he wants to like Linux but has had too many problems with it. He sure as hell is no Paul Thurott.

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers.


XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.


Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise. The problem is not with the actual Linux drivers but a kernel level driver model that is not designed around end users or hardware companies.
"

The problem here is what you call a minor upgrades.

2.6.37 to 2.6.38 is technically not a minor upgrade this is a kernel rework equal to the kernel change between 2003 and 2008 server. Yes the number of alterations to kernel between 2.6.37 to 2.6.38 that happened in 3 months is about the same number of alterations that happened between 2003 and 2008.

2.6.35.1-11 all are minor upgrades. This is a longterm kernel minor upgrades on it don't break things. These are all driver compatible if distribution build them all with the same compiler no issues.

Finally there are the Ubuntu's out there. Who apply 12 megs + of non upstream patches that hardware makers don't normally see first. Then people wonder why they get a black eye.

Lets blame Linux its simpler. Than blaming the distribution that they are using for be incompetent and not giving me warning that they are just doing a major OS upgrade that could turn my computer into swiss cheese and have hidden the boot loader so making it hard to swap back to the prior kernel that worked. Yes skin save in a lot of cases. Upgrade failed switch back.

Problem is distributions and users not understanding the differences. Made worse by users blaming the wrong party. Upstream Linux does provide points of stable API. They need distributions to provide stable compiler for ABI.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Wed 16th Mar 2011 14:12 in reply to "RE[8]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"
[q]My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers.


XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.


Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise. The problem is not with the actual Linux drivers but a kernel level driver model that is not designed around end users or hardware companies.
"
[/q]
I am sorry to do a PS like this but I missed something most people don't know and is completely critical and explains a lot of the flaky driver issues down to the ground.

Fact 1 only longterm Linux kernels are in fact tested against closed source drivers.
Fact 2 longterm kernels come once every 12 months only. This is what hardware companies have asked for.
Fact 3 longterm kernels are maintained for at-least 5 years can be taken to 10 years if there is a particular demand from hardware makers.
Fact 4 Updates design not to interfere with driver to kernel ABI as long as same compiler is used are the only ones applied to long term kernels.

Binary drivers for Linux normally ship with a small source wrapper to cover the interface issue caused by distributions using different compilers and end users using different compilers.

Distributions have never agreed to a universal compiler for building kernels. For longterm kernels it would be really really nice if they would. Ok the non longterm kernels you should not be using with binary drivers they can do what ever they like and I would not care as long as users had option of the cleanly built long term kernel.

Problem here with ubuntu 11.04 is being released with a 2.6.38 kernel. The next longterm is 2.6.39. Outbox not being provide with an option to install with 2.6.35.11/12 for people using closed source drivers. So yes expect trouble. Same also applies to X.org and other parts. The closed source drivers sync once per year that is it unless companies are felling really nice or really pressured.

Ubuntu 10.10 comes with close to 2.6.35 but 12 megs of non approve patches have been applied so reducing compatibility.

So yes flaky driver is explained in most cases either flaky/modified kernel provide by distribution or providing a untested kernel for kernel mode binary drivers. You could view the 3 kernels middle of longterm versions of kernel as like Windows Beta versions when it comes to closed source drivers. Of course they are going to be trouble. Expecting anything else is really showing you are not educated in how it works.

Items that distrobutions should be completely yelled at for doing. Not yelling at the main Linux kernel saying provide stable driver abi. They have a pattern to provide a stable API with a clear dependable cycle.

Also around this they are providing a complete set of userspace solutions are are not effected by compilers or kernel selected.

What more can the Linux kernel people really do. Its end users job now to be on distributions back to provide the right kernels. Failure to provide the long term kernels should be enough grounds to not use test or demo that distribution. To at least provide the option of a non messed with long term kernel/s for binary drivers.

And hopefully force distributions into an agreement for a common compiler for non messed with long term kernel/s

This is why I get so pissed with we want a common Kernel API request. The issue is done dusted sorted every way possible other than distributions messing it up.

Yes that the Linux kernel does not do everything possible for "hardware companies" is complete BS. Particularly when you wake up 70 percent of the people who can vote on topics are Hardware companies staff. Yes they win by majority vote every time.

Please go and look at the board of the Linux foundation. Remember they are Linus bosses who are behind his wages getting paid.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by Soulbender on Wed 16th Mar 2011 04:27 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

It is on every other platform including the iphone.


To paraphrase another thread....
I can only recommend developers to try to hack with only Windows in mind and experience the freedom and the opportunities this offers you. So get yourself a copy of Windows Game Programming With DirectX, ignore everything it says about other operating systems and hack away your amazing Windows games.

Edited 2011-03-16 04:28 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[8]: F**k this shit!
by Valhalla on Wed 16th Mar 2011 07:03 in reply to "RE[7]: F**k this shit!"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

Yes I would, he has an interest in alternative operating systems and has given Linux a fair trial on numerous occasions.

By what metric? I would say though, that he is not quite as partial as he is with the xbox360 vs ps3 coverage which is insanely biased.

XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

So? Microsoft get's a carte blanche because they release new versions very seldom and thus breakage is to be expected?

Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise.

I'm assuming you are talking about 'binary blob' drivers, which can break due to changes in the kernel ABI/API. And certainly that can be a problem if you live on the bleeding edge, and the providers of said binary blobs are not up to speed. Having been using a 'rolling' distribution (Arch Linux) for a couple of years, I've yet to see my only binary blob dependancy (NVidia) to lag with providing up-to-date binaries, but afaik they are very good at this so maybe they are not representative. But since all other hardware I use is supported straight out of the kernel, I've had no problems when upgrading (technically NVidia is supported through Noveau aswell which would allow me to omit binary blobs altogether, but there is quite a performance difference for my card).

Why isn't The Sims 3 available for Linux? It is on every other platform including the iphone.

Because of market share, again it's not a problem shipping proprietary products (with DRM no less) onto Linux if the market is there, hence the strong showing of 3D/SFX software available (which all contain DRM mechanisms). But the desktop market just isn't big enough to warrant interest from the big players in say, the game industry. That's not to say that they don't sell to Linux users though, Wine makes it possible to reach Linux users without paying a penny to do so, 3d hardware acceleration together with virtualization is another option but that requires the need of a guest operating system.

No distro is trying to cater to proprietary developers.

The only thing I can think of here is that there isn't any automated way to push DRM onto end user systems, which isn't really an issue since a binary distribution can easily setup their own DRM (you know, like commercial software does on Windows), which is also what's being done on those aforementioned 3D/SFX packages for Linux. Apart from that, how are repositories discriminating towards proprietary software?

Linux is used in rendering farms but is a minority platform when it comes to desktop drawing.

No, that's no longer the case and hasn't been for quite some time. This is the reason we are seeing native Linux ports of pure modeling/sculpting programs like Mudbox, which unlike ZBrush had performance problems running under wine. Of course programs like Maya/XSI already provided native modeling capacity for Linux. But you are right that Linux as render farms is what opened the flood-gates for Linux within that industry, given the results it didn't take long before companies wanted to run their entire pipeline through Linux, which is what has resulted in Linux being so well-catered in this area.

Reply Parent Score: 4

Unix workstations.
by Nth_Man on Wed 16th Mar 2011 10:53 in reply to "RE[8]: F**k this shit!"
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

Well said.

But you are right that Linux as render farms is what opened the flood-gates for Linux within that industry

I just wanted to add that, also, 3D computer graphics, 3D animations, etc, were done in Unix workstations; so the move of software and experts to Linux workstations and Linux render farms was a clear one (and cost-effective :-)).

Edited 2011-03-16 11:02 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3