Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th May 2011 22:13 UTC
Apple We've had an immense hubbub about the delay in the source code release of Honeycomb, which led to a storm of critique being sent Google's way. Turns out there's another company withholding source code, and this time it's Apple. They have stopped releasing the LGPL source code for WebKit in iOS since iOS 4.3.0, released about 8 weeks ago. Turns out - this isn't the first time Apple has refused to release (L)GPL'd code. It took them six months to release the required GPL source code for iOS 4.1.
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RE[3]: Comment by molnarcs
by Large_Whale on Sat 7th May 2011 22:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by molnarcs"
Large_Whale
Member since:
2011-05-07

Please, read carefully. I said specifically Apple and KDE/KHTML because you specifically said great disrespect and forgetting. And talk about current official project's website. So Jobs said they used "open source project and then made it webkit", well they did that and still who gives a ***. Certainly a major heart attack statement. WebKit is branched from KDE/KHTML and they do credit them very properly on webkit.org.

Does Google say they use "Apple" or "KDE" code? In the blog post? Maybe on the project's website? Nope. But apparently Google writes stuff "from scratch", so now I get it. Now I also get why Google won't opensource Honeycomb.

PS. Even the first comment on the blog post did remind them of crediting KDE/KHTML. Which of course they should've. But that's not how Google rolls. Which is sad. But I don't give a c**p. You do. Apparently just not in Google's case.

I guess bigger problem is Jobs. Let's all cry because he said something, someday ago. He says something pompous so rarely.

Get a grip man. Cheers.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[4]: Comment by molnarcs
by saynte on Sun 8th May 2011 04:53 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by molnarcs"
saynte Member since:
2007-12-10

The problem is that you're making an inappropriate comparison (which the original poster tried to point out above). Webkit is a rendering engine, Chrome is a browser.

Google never claimed to create a new rendering engine, because they clearly didn't.

Webkit, in contrast, is a project directly forked from an open-source rendering engine. Webkit is essentially a modified KHTML, where Chrome uses webkit as a library; different situations entirely.

Also, if you go and look at the contributors to Webkit, about a third are Google employees. So Google does openly support Webkit.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by molnarcs
by molnarcs on Sun 8th May 2011 09:14 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by molnarcs"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Thank you saynte. Yeah, that's exactly my problem - the two arguments do not fit. On one hand we have a claim that "Apple started with an open source project and created WebKit a complete open-source HTML5 rendering engine". That is a blatant lie - and this is not the first time this happens. Can't find the other quote, but I recall them saying that they "opensourced" it - while in fact WebKit (when released, basically KHTML + a few Apple patches) was already GPL, and Apple had no choice but to comply with its terms. One of the reasons I mention this that by now, among fanboys, it's a well known fact that Apple gave the world WebKit - which is total BS.

On the other hand, we have an announcement by Google about their own browser, every single bit written by Google employees that happens to use WebKit as its rendering engine - and as saynte points out (and as I hinted at in my first reply) WebKit is a library. Rendering engines can be swapped out in all modern browsers. Case in point is Google Frame, that swaps out the rendering engine under IE, making it use the WebKit engine instead. Moreover, Google itself is a major contributor to WebKit, but they don't claim they have created it.

I hope this clarifies it for you. And for others who say Apple gives proper credit to KHTML and KDE - yeah, they do in documents only geeks read, but that doesn't get any press time. An open letter written by Apple's CEO does... The result? Apple giving Webkit to the world has become a well known "fact" among fans, and this is becoming harder and harder to dispute. I even heard people say that Google couldn't build Chrome without Apple. They certainly could. NOKIA built their maemo browser on KHTML before Apple forked it. Apple is just one among many contributors to Webkit, and certainly not its creator. And to get back to your google rant - again, that blog you link to is about Google's browser, which was written 100% Google, not WebKit (although they do say a big thanks to WebKit in their opening line).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by molnarcs
by Large_Whale on Sun 8th May 2011 11:37 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by molnarcs"
Large_Whale Member since:
2011-05-07

Everyone knows the story. I just don't agree with your point of view. WebKit today is diversified from KHTML, based on years of development pushed first by Apple (with lots of other contributors coming after opening it), with completely new code, etc. It's not the good old KHTML anymore. And it was pushed (and probably still is) mainly by Apple. More so KHTML AFAIR still exists as a completely separate and autonomous engine, I think it may even still be developed, but I'm not sure ATM.

Second thing, Google sports WebKit for Chrome(ium) and that makes it a vital part of the browser. You know perfectly well it's the lungs and heart of Chrome(ium) and they won't drop it. They brag about how they wanted to write their own engine but used WebKit instead. Sure they don't have to use it, but they do and they will, so they incorporated the code in a way. If you stick to crediting KDE/KHTML for WebKit and everything related (which WebKit does), then why isn't Google crediting those guys anywhere? Where is the credit?

All I'm saying is that Apple/WebKit (think of them what you wish) at least credits the original team - the KDE guys who clearly made today's WebKit possible. Not in some internal docs, but on main website, first place you go. A simple thanks from Google would suffice, but it's not there. It's not anywhere.

Even worse - Google likes "WebKit" and they credit "WebKit". If today they have 1/3 of contributors, I guess the story is that Google doesn't need to credit KDE/Apple because Google thanks Google. For people who don't know the whole picture, in a year or so, it'll seem like Google indeed does thank Google for "making all this possible". I'd be afraid of that, not some Jobs usual propaganda who everyone is used to.

Edited 2011-05-08 11:38 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 0