Linked by David Adams on Fri 13th May 2011 04:54 UTC
Microsoft In business school the first thing they teach you about CEOs is: it is the CEO’s job to increase the shareholder value of the company. Since taking the position Ballmer has decreased shareholder value, as reflected by stock price, by -56.63%. That. Is. Not. Good . . . Microsoft should be searching for a new CEO right now.
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RE[7]: That article...
by twitterfire on Fri 13th May 2011 15:19 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: That article..."
twitterfire
Member since:
2008-09-11


People need an OS. That OS doesn't always need to be Windows.


People doesn't need an OS. People need software for various tasks, from leisure and entertaining to make a living.

Last time I've checked, all important software ran on Windows, not on Linux or Mac Os X.

I was in the "hurd" of MS haters for several years myself. Actually I still think that Os X and Linux are better in some ways compared to Windows Xp, but now its 2011 and we have Windows 7 and I find it to be much better.

Also, the software I use for living (MS Visual Studio) doesn't run on Os X or Linux. Neither does the software I code. Yes, you can make a living as a programmer if you code for Os X or Linux, but how many jobs are there? Besides, I grow to enjoy technologies like .NET and WPF which makes a pleasure coding anything from desktop apps and phone apps to websites. To add on top of that, .NET programmers tend to be payed better.

The software I use in my free time, mainly Photoshop, Lotro and Rift, do not run on other oses, either. And I have yet to find a software running on other oses and making a better job than its main windows competitor.

I was an Os enthusiast, I've tried tons of other oses, and ran some for years (Linux, Os X), but now I don't see any benefit from running another OS.

Of course, if you use a computer just for web, mail, facebook, skype and twitter, you can use Os. If you need / want stuff to be done, you have to use Windows.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[8]: That article...
by Laurence on Fri 13th May 2011 16:10 in reply to "RE[7]: That article..."
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26

Sorry for the long post, but there was so much personal bias sold as impartial fact that I really did need to address each point you made and highlight the inaccuracies in your opinions.


People doesn't need an OS. People need software for various tasks, from leisure and entertaining to make a living.

Last time I've checked, all important software ran on Windows, not on Linux or Mac Os X.

Aside Ableton which I use for music, I’ve not found any Windows software that there wasn’t a Linux counterpart.
So much so, I can count on 1 hand the number of instances I’ve needed Windows in the last 5 years (and all of those were because I was dealing with professional audio gear – so well outside the realm of any normal usage).

I was in the "hurd" of MS haters for several years myself. Actually I still think that Os X and Linux are better in some ways compared to Windows Xp, but now its 2011 and we have Windows 7 and I find it to be much better.

This is one of those “each to their own” moments. Personally I can’t stand Win 7 (the last MS OS I enjoyed using was Win 2000 – everything else since has annoyed me). However I know plenty of people who love Windows 7. It’s all horses of courses as some might say.


Also, the software I use for living (MS Visual Studio) doesn't run on Os X or Linux.

No, but there’s at least a dozen other IDEs that do run on Linux and OS X. Eclipse, QT Creator, Xcode and Netbeans, to name but 4 highly popular environments.


Neither does the software I code.

Well that’s really your problem rather than the short comings of Linux or OS X as Linux alone better supports more languages than Windows does.

Yes, you can make a living as a programmer if you code for Os X or Linux, but how many jobs are there?

Lots actually (In fact more than Windows, if you take PHP into account). In fact I'm living proof of this having spent only a small fraction of the professional life developing for Windows (and that's not for avoiding such jobs either)

Besides, I grow to enjoy technologies like .NET and WPF which makes a pleasure coding anything from desktop apps and phone apps to websites.

Again, that’s entirely personal preference and somewhat irrelevant when comparing platforms.

To add on top of that, .NET programmers tend to be payed better.

That’s not really true though is it ;) . Check the rates Oracle consultants get or COBAL developers in the financial sector.

The software I use in my free time, mainly Photoshop, Lotro and Rift, do not run on other oses, either.

I hadn’t heard of the last 2 but Photoshop does. However again your making the point that because one name brand doesn’t run on one platform, there isn’t a competing piece of software that does.

And I have yet to find a software running on other oses and making a better job than its main windows competitor.

Apache > IIS
OpenSSH > Windows Telnet Services
Firefox / Chromium / Opera / Safari > Internet Explorer
Logic > Cubase (granted this one is more personal preference)
Kwrite > Windows Notepad
Linux / OS X terminals > Windows CMD prompt
Bash shell scripting / Perl > WSH / Powershell
ESXi > anything on offer on Windows
ZFS > Drive Extender
FreeNAS > Windows Home Server
...and don’t even get me started on the shit that is “Windows Update”.

I’m not about to say that Linux nor OS X is better than Windows or visa versa. But to say that Windows does everything better is more than just a little biased don’t you think?

I was an Os enthusiast, I've tried tons of other oses, and ran some for years (Linux, Os X), but now I don't see any benefit from running another OS.

So don’t. Nobody is forcing you. That’s the beauty of free choice ;)
For me, Windows was the “another OS” that I never boot into. So I got rid of it. That was my choice just as the above was yours.

Of course, if you use a computer just for web, mail, facebook, skype and twitter, you can use Os. If you need / want stuff to be done, you have to use Windows.

Rubbish. That’s complete and utter rubbish. I’m happy for differences in personal preference, but please don’t start spreading your bias as fact.

Edited 2011-05-13 16:17 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[9]: That article...
by Nth_Man on Fri 13th May 2011 17:21 in reply to "RE[8]: That article..."
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

> > If you need / want stuff to be done, you have to
> > use Windows.

> please don’t start spreading [...]

You are right, for example I don't use Windows to work.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: That article...
by twitterfire on Fri 13th May 2011 18:18 in reply to "RE[8]: That article..."
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

Sorry for the long post, but there was so much personal bias sold as impartial fact that I really did need to address each point you made and highlight the inaccuracies in your opinions.


Good Sir, seeing and telling the truth as it is doesn't make me biased, does it?



Aside Ableton which I use for music, I’ve not found any Windows software that there wasn’t a Linux counterpart.
So much so, I can count on 1 hand the number of instances I’ve needed Windows in the last 5 years (and all of those were because I was dealing with professional audio gear – so well outside the realm of any normal usage).

There are hundreds of software which doesn't have a Linux or Os X counterpart. And no, software like Gimp and Open Office aren't alternatives when you need quality, productivity and interoperability.



This is one of those “each to their own” moments. Personally I can’t stand Win 7 (the last MS OS I enjoyed using was Win 2000 – everything else since has annoyed me). However I know plenty of people who love Windows 7. It’s all horses of courses as some might say.


Nobody forces Windows 7 upon you, Good Sir. Your employer might, but I bet s/he is one of those cool guys/gals who advocates, promotes and uses Free and Open Source Software. ;)


No, but there’s at least a dozen other IDEs that do run on Linux and OS X. Eclipse, QT Creator, Xcode and Netbeans, to name but 4 highly popular environments.


You can't use any of those wonderful pieces of software to develop WPF apps or ASP.NET, Good Sir. Prior to switching to .NET and WPF I was developing desktop apps using MFC. Couldn't use QT Creator and Xcode for that. Before that I was developing mobile games. Guess what platform they have chosen.



Well that’s really your problem rather than the short comings of Linux or OS X as Linux alone better supports more languages than Windows does.

Which of the most used languages does Linux support better? You make me curious. Even almost all crappy scripting languages can be used on Windows. Perl, Python, Ruby, PHP, SH, Lua, UnrealScript all work on Windows.



Lots actually (In fact more than Windows, if you take PHP into account). In fact I'm living proof of this having spent only a small fraction of the professional life developing for Windows (and that's not for avoiding such jobs either)

Truth is, Good Sir, that most PHP programmers do their work on Windows. Jobs for Windows coders or using Windows as a dev platform (ASp.NET, other web programming, Windows Phone, Xbox) are plenty and much more than for other platforms.

Do not trust me, go to http://www.dice.com/ and see for yourself.

Again, that’s entirely personal preference and somewhat irrelevant when comparing platforms.

It's very relevant when you have to make a living from it, trust me. No one likes to do borring tasks and no one likes to reinvent the wheel and no one likes to do a task in 10 hours when he can do it in an hour on other platform.


That’s not really true though is it ;) . Check the rates Oracle consultants get or COBAL developers in the financial sector.

Good Sir, I wasn't talking about niches and exotic things. I was talking about mainstream. If I wanted to be borred to death, I would have learned COBOL and make more cash. ;) However if desktop apps and website will begin to bore me, I can refresh my Directx and OpenGL knowledge and get a slightly better income.
Again, you do not need to trust me, you can go to http://www.payscale.com and see for yourself.


Apache > IIS
OpenSSH > Windows Telnet Services
Firefox / Chromium / Opera / Safari > Internet Explorer
Logic > Cubase (granted this one is more personal preference)
Kwrite > Windows Notepad
Linux / OS X terminals > Windows CMD prompt
Bash shell scripting / Perl > WSH / Powershell
ESXi > anything on offer on Windows
ZFS > Drive Extender
FreeNAS > Windows Home Server
...and don’t even get me started on the shit that is “Windows Update”.


Apache runs on Windows, too. And why most of the Top 500 Fortune companies use IIS? Because is Apache better?
You can use SSH on windows too. However you have plenty of other means to administrate a Windows server at distance.
There are many scripting engines on Windows, BASH included. However there aren't many scripting maniacs on Windows because there's no need.
Firefox, Chrome and Opera were developed primarily for Windows. Chrome may be the best browser for now, FF and Opera used to be better than old IE, but now IE9 is certainly not worse than FF, Opera or Safari.
You make me laugh when you compare Kwrite with Notepad. You can compare the fugly Gedit with Notepad or you can compare Kwrite to Wordpad. Wordpad wins. ;)
Srsly? I have to lurk moar. Why is a Linux or Os X terminal better than cmd? I guess you compare the terminal software itself, not the underlying OS commands.
Quote: "VMware ESX and VMware ESXi are bare-metal embedded Hypervisors that are VMware's enterprise software hypervisors for servers that run directly on server hardware without requiring an additional underlying operating system."
ZFS is a file system.
Why would be FreeNAS better than Windows Server 8? Besides going El Cheapo.

FYI, LOTRO and Rift are mmorpgs. That expands in massively multiplayer onlyne role playing games, that's a kind of games.

I’m not about to say that Linux nor OS X is better than Windows or visa versa. But to say that Windows does everything better is more than just a little biased don’t you think?

I wasn't saying that Windows does averything better. When it comes to desktops - and about that I was talking - it does most of the things better. When it comes to servers it does some things better while it does some things worse.



So don’t. Nobody is forcing you. That’s the beauty of free choice ;)
For me, Windows was the “another OS” that I never boot into. So I got rid of it. That was my choice just as the above was yours.


Nobody is forcing Windows 7 upon you either, Good Sir.


Rubbish. That’s complete and utter rubbish. I’m happy for differences in personal preference, but please don’t start spreading your bias as fact.


Again, telling the truth isn't bias, is it? The numbers speak for themselves and the vast majority of home users and busnesses who use Windows doesn't use Windows just to throw their money away and from inertia. They did find something valuable in it.

Yuou seem to fail badly at making any point, Good Sir. While I admire your stance as a shiny knight on a white horse wrestling with the big, bad, ugly dragon from Redmond, I came to the conclusion that you haven't proved anything.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[9]: That article...
by WereCatf on Sat 14th May 2011 05:05 in reply to "RE[8]: That article..."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Aside Ableton which I use for music, I’ve not found any Windows software that there wasn’t a Linux counterpart.


I too have only one specific application for which there is no Linux version: Spotify. There does exist a preview version, but it for example doesn't support playback of local files at all :/

The more limiting factors for me are that all the good games are for Windows, and that not all of my hardware works under Linux.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: That article...
by JonathanBThompson on Fri 13th May 2011 20:30 in reply to "RE[7]: That article..."
JonathanBThompson Member since:
2006-05-26

I'll just address one point that'll blow your mind: you can command better rates for contracts at Microsoft for their non-MS platform development, should you have that experience, compared to a typical MS technology.

Oh, and this will also blow your mind: when working with non-MS technology, they don't require you to use an MS OS to do your work in that non-MS technology. It may seem strange, but it's true!

I'd like to see a much better non-anecdotal statement that backs up your assertion about Linux/OSX jobs being paid less than .NET jobs. Ultimately, for the best pay, being able to bounce between multiple platforms often gets you that purple squirrel pay.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: That article...
by ricegf on Sat 14th May 2011 05:18 in reply to "RE[7]: That article..."
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

If you need / want stuff to be done, you have to use Windows.


This says that only Windows can do real work. I'm sure you don't mean to say that out loud, where everyone can hear you and crinkle their brows at you in puzzlement or worse. Right?

I mean, you can't possibly be stating that graphics artists, who primarily use Mac OS/X, don't need / want things to be done? Scientists depending on supercomputers, which overwhelmingly run Linux, don't need / want things to be done? Mechanical and chemical engineers, who predominantly use Unix or Linux-based CAD/CAM systems, don't need / want things to get done? Pixar,which renders its movies on Linux systems, don't need / want things to get done?

I could go on, but perhaps you get my point. I realize that at the moment you prefer Windows, and have selected some tools that only run on that OS. I'm happy that you like your system, and am glad you have a choice.

But it would be incredibly naive to then assert that OS/X and Linux and Unix and other more specialized operating systems are only good for browsing the web.

So I'm sure you didn't mean to say that. Right?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: That article...
by WereCatf on Sat 14th May 2011 06:09 in reply to "RE[8]: That article..."
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

I mean, you can't possibly be stating that graphics artists, who primarily use Mac OS/X, don't need / want things to be done? Scientists depending on supercomputers, which overwhelmingly run Linux, don't need / want things to be done? Mechanical and chemical engineers, who predominantly use Unix or Linux-based CAD/CAM systems, don't need / want things to get done? Pixar,which renders its movies on Linux systems, don't need / want things to get done?


Didn't the Wall Street just switch to Linux too some time ago?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: That article...
by sweiss on Sat 14th May 2011 07:19 in reply to "RE[8]: That article..."
sweiss Member since:
2005-10-01

I suppose one cannot argue with the fact that Windows is the best general purpose OS out there. Other OSes may prove to be better in the more expert related scenarios.
I think Windows has the broadest spectrum of tasks which can be performed "pretty well".

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[8]: That article...
by JAlexoid on Sat 14th May 2011 09:55 in reply to "RE[7]: That article..."
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

There are a lot of interesting jobs that pay better and don't require Windows. You, personally, are a person that requires Windows for work. There are millions that don't use PS, neither need it. There are millions that would not know the difference between Windows and Linux.

As for mobile app developers, their preffered OS of choice is MacOSX because you build both iOS and Android apps. There are not many established mobile app developers that are excited about WP7, yet.

Reply Parent Score: 2