Linked by Hadrien Grasland on Sun 29th May 2011 09:42 UTC
OSNews, Generic OSes It's funny how trying to have a consistent system design makes you constantly jump from one area of the designed OS to another. I initially just tried to implement interrupt handling, and now I'm cleaning up the design of an RPC-based daemon model, which will be used to implement interrupt handlers, along with most other system services. Anyway, now that I get to something I'm personally satisfied with, I wanted to ask everyone who's interested to check that design and tell me if anything in it sounds like a bad idea to them in the short or long run. That's because this is a core part of this OS' design, and I'm really not interested in core design mistakes emerging in a few years if I can fix them now. Many thanks in advance.
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RE[4]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos
by Kaj-de-Vos on Sun 29th May 2011 20:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos"
Kaj-de-Vos
Member since:
2010-06-09

You keep defending your existing notions, instead of entertaining the notion I introduced that is apparently new to you. Do you agree that declarative data is at a higher abstraction level than a procedure call? Do you agree that not specifying an implementation language is simpler than specifying a specific language?

If you are not willing to look at common implementations, lessons from history become meaningless, either good or bad. Do you have experience with messaging in Amiga, BeOS, Syllable, microkernels, REBOL, enterprise messaging, or anything else?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos
by Neolander on Sun 29th May 2011 20:38 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

You keep defending your existing notions, instead of entertaining the notion I introduced that is apparently new to you.

I work this way. If you want to prove that your way of thinking is better than mine, you have to expose clearly what's wrong in my way of thinking. Alfman has been successfully doing this when defending the async model vs the threaded model, as such async has now more room in my IPC model.

Do you agree that declarative data is at a higher abstraction level than a procedure call?

Define declarative data, Google and Wikipedia have no idea what this is and I haven't either ;)

Do you agree that not specifying an implementation language is simpler than specifying a specific language?

Simpler? Oh, certainly not, if you consider the whole development cycle. The higher-level abstractions are, the more complicated working with them tends to be, as soon as you get away from the path drawn for you by the abstraction manufacturer and you have to think about what the abstraction actually is (which is, say, the case when implementing the abstraction)

As an example, when explaining sorting algorithms, it is common to draw some sketches that implicitly represent lists (packs of data with an "insert" operation). Now, try to visually represent sorting in an abstract storage area that may be as well a list or an array. How hard is that ?

As another example, which programming abstraction is easier to define to someone who has no programming knowledge : a function or an object ?

If you are not willing to look at common implementations, lessons from history become meaningless, either good or bad. Do you have experience with messaging in Amiga, BeOS, Syllable, microkernels, REBOL, enterprise messaging, or anything else?

I'm not sure what is it that you're calling messaging actually. Are you talking about the concept of processes communicating by sending data to each other (pipes), the idea of communicating over such a data link with a messaging protocol (like HTTP), ... ?

Edited 2011-05-29 20:48 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos
by Kaj-de-Vos on Sun 29th May 2011 21:01 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos"
Kaj-de-Vos Member since:
2010-06-09

I don't have to convince you. You asked for criticisms that would be useful to you. If you don't consider what you requested, it won't be useful to you. It seems my impression was right that you don't understand the concept of messaging, and it would take me a lot of time and energy to change your mental model.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos
by xiaokj on Sun 29th May 2011 21:36 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by Kaj-de-Vos"
xiaokj Member since:
2005-06-30

Define declarative data, Google and Wikipedia have no idea what this is and I haven't either ;)

Let me help, whatever I can, here. If, and that is a very big "if", I am correct, he is referring to something really esoteric. It should be a design philosophy coming straight out of things like "Art of Unix Programming".

Apparently, he is trying to tell you that there is a very much more abstract way to deal with stuff than the RPC. To work with RPC, you will need to define the function name and its accepted parameters, and that would then be set in stone. If you used declarative data, then, what you would do is to have the library export a datasheet of "what can I do" and when you pick a specific function, "what options are here", complete with version numbers. Preferably XML. Then, the clients can make do with whatever that is provided.

The benefits of this is that major changes can be done a lot easier than before. However, there is a major downside too: it is much harder to code in that form. The benefits tend to pay out over the long run, but still.

The main point of doing things like this, other than the obviously stated one, is that it makes you get used to declarative data structures. They, on the other hand, make much more sense! As the Art of Unix Programming notes, the human mind is a lot better at tackling complex data than complex code flows. Declarative data structures push the complexity into the data side, so that the overall code becomes a lot cleaner, and it is in there that the benefits can be most easily reaped.

Take the pic language for example. It is a lot easier to declare that you want a rectangle of a certain size, and that its top left corner (NW) corner is connected to an arrow that points to a circle of radius so and so. The code then takes care of the rest. These kinds of code tend to stay sane even with extreme longevity whereas if you tried to define things by coordinates, sooner or later your API will be replaced, for such simplistic API are a dime a dozen. Declarative programming is something like that, and it is really time-saving.

I hope I have correctly captured his idea. I don't know anything, actually, so take some salt with this.

Reply Parent Score: 2