Linked by Conrad Voorsanger on Thu 2nd Jun 2011 16:28 UTC
OSNews sat down with Ian Seyler, the Founder and Lead Programmer at Return Infinity, the maker and sponsor of Baremetal OS, a 64-bit OS for x86-64 based computers written entirely in Assembly. Editor's note: We'd love to do similar interviews with the people behind other alternative or hobby OS projects. If there's a project that you'd like to learn more about, let us know.
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Member since:2011-01-28
"But while reading 'Starting Forth' you surely noticed, where I copy the above from? 
"
Yes.
"...using Forth words, instead of coding in assembly, usually overall size of your code is smaller, when programming in Forth."
We're still talking about compiled x86 code? Honestly I don't understand the logic, but no matter.
"No. Actually, programming in Forth is rather 'designing one's own problem-specific language'...instead of using ready-available high-level function"
This is fine for programming algorithms, and it's probably fine for OS work. However I'd be worried about leaving typical web developers to write their own functions. I imagine this results in a lot of duplicate code between libraries.
"Since I'm Forth-newbie (learning it about year for now), you may be interested in asking these questions on comp.lang.forth, where you'll meet several experienced Forth-programmers"
Thank you for answering my questions. The language seems to have an almost universal quality to it - I think you'll know what I mean by that.
RE[6]: Why not in Forth?
by Zbigniew on Sun 5th Jun 2011 13:06
in reply to "RE[5]: Why not in Forth?"
Member since:2008-08-28
"...using Forth words, instead of coding in assembly, usually overall size of your code is smaller, when programming in Forth."
We're still talking about compiled x86 code? Honestly I don't understand the logic, but no matter.
We're still talking about compiled x86 code? Honestly I don't understand the logic, but no matter.
If I'm correct, there have been studies into that (Like can an Assembler programmer outperform an optimizing C compiler). Result: Only about 10 percent of programmers can outperform an optimizer.
Ans so I guess, that something similar to the above is behind the logic: Forth makes "dirty work" for you.
"No. Actually, programming in Forth is rather 'designing one's own problem-specific language'...instead of using ready-available high-level function"
This is fine for programming algorithms, and it's probably fine for OS work. However I'd be worried about leaving typical web developers to write their own functions. I imagine this results in a lot of duplicate code between libraries.
This is fine for programming algorithms, and it's probably fine for OS work. However I'd be worried about leaving typical web developers to write their own functions. I imagine this results in a lot of duplicate code between libraries.
Nobody said, that Forth is going to replace HTML. Regarding the libraries: Forth programmers often prefer to "reinvent the wheel" - and to implement the things own way - instead of relying on old, fatty, buggy, and (still more and more) bloated libraries.
Thank you for answering my questions.
You're welcome.
RE[6]: Why not in Forth?
by AndrewZ on Mon 6th Jun 2011 20:56
in reply to "RE[5]: Why not in Forth?"
Member since:2005-11-15
"..using Forth words, instead of coding in assembly, usually overall size of your code is smaller, when programming in Forth."
We're still talking about compiled x86 code? Honestly I don't understand the logic, but no matter.
It's been a while since I thought of Forth but from my long term storage...
Technically speaking Forth is a compiled language, but technically speaking Forth is not compiled like other high level languages. Forth has no real syntax, it is mostly code 'words' and data on a stack. As such it is already very compact. Forth is very close to the metal, so it is also very optimal. Forth is not for everyone. But if you like it, you love it. If it is for you, you become a Forth zealot and you try to convert all your friends. And of course they become annoyed, because they have never heard of Forth.
News
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/17/13 17:58 UTC
"The Internet is one of the most transformative technologies of our lifetimes. But for 2 out of every 3 people on earth, a fast, affordable Internet connection is still out of reach. And this is far from being a solved problem. There are many terrestrial challenges to Internet connectivity - jungles, archipelagos, mountains. There are also major cost challenges. Right now, for example, in most of the countries in the southern hemisphere, the cost of an Internet connection is more than a month's income. Solving these problems isn't simply a question of time: it requires looking at the problem of access from new angles. So today we're unveiling our latest moonshot from Google[x]: balloon-powered Internet access." Insane.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/17/13 17:52 UTC
"MineAssemble is a tiny bootable Minecraft clone written partly in x86 assembly. I made it first and foremost because a university assignment required me to implement a game in assembly for a computer systems course. Because I had never implemented anything more complex than a 'Hello World' bootloader before, I decided I wanted to learn about writing my own kernel code at the same time. Note that the goal of this project was not to write highly efficient hand-optimized assembly code, but rather to have fun and write code that balances readability and speed. This is primarily accomplished by proper commenting and consistent code structuring." Just cool.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/14/13 21:03 UTC
Jon Rubinstein, former CEO of Palm: "Well, I'm not sure I would have sold the company to HP. That's for sure. Talk about a waste. Not that I had any choice because when you sell a company you don't get to decide that. Obviously, the board and shareholders decide that. If we had known they were just going to shut it down and never really give it a chance to flourish, what would have been the point of selling the company? I think the deal we had with Verizon really hurt us, but who knew that at the time? These things are all hindsight."
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/14/13 20:46 UTC
"And so it is with Dell's Alienware X51 R2, a small form factor gaming PC in console digs. It's shaped similar to Microsoft's Xbox 360 Slim, and though it's slightly larger than either a 360 or PlayStation 3, the X51 R2 would be right at home in a living room setting nestled next to a large screen TV. Indeed, it's adept at running Steam's Big Picture mode, and if your primary objective is to play games in the living room, go ahead and consider the X51 R2 a hybrid game console." This is obviously not the only machine like this - still, these are very valid console alternatives even for those that don't like being hunched over with a cramped WASD-claw. Also, PC gamers among us: could you get away with the $699 model for gaming?
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/14/13 17:32 UTC
From Bloomberg: "Microsoft, the world's largest software company, provides intelligence agencies with information about bugs in its popular software before it publicly releases a fix, according to two people familiar with the process. That information can be used to protect government computers and to access the computers of terrorists or military foes." The lid has officially been blown off.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/14/13 11:39 UTC
"The key takeaway we've reached (after two less than 24 hours playing with the iOS 7 Beta release) is this - every App must consider even basic updates to its UI to survive in a post-iOS 6 world." Great. Telling developers to update their entire application - user interface and behaviour alike - to target a look and behaviour that isn't final yet. Seems like potential for a lot of wasted work here.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/14/13 11:32 UTC
"Overall the app is really basic, and designed for on the go editing. Microsoft says it's not planning to create an iPad version, noting that tablet users can utilize the Office Web Apps instead. We'd like to see some additional options for editing, including more clear options for text formatting and the ability to insert and change images, but it's a solid attempt for something you're only really going to use for editing in emergencies." A resounding meh can be heard from all over the world.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/13/13 19:39 UTC
"Today, most people are using modern browsers that support the majority of the latest web technologies. Better yet, the usage of legacy browsers is declining significantly and newer browsers stay up to date automatically, which means the leading edge has become mainstream. Given these factors we've decided to retire Chrome Frame, and will cease support and updates for the product in January 2014." Eh.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/13/13 14:45 UTC
The Next Web: "First of all, many of the new icons were primarily designed by members of Apple's marketing and communications department, not the app design teams. From what we've heard, SVP of Design Jony Ive (also now Apple's head of Human Interaction) brought the print and web marketing design team in to set the look and color palette of the stock app icons. They then handed those off to the app design teams who did their own work on the 'interiors', with those palettes as a guide. We've also been hearing that there wasn't a whole lot of communication between the various teams behind say, Mail and Safari. And that there were multiple teams inside each group that were competing with various designs, leading to what some see as inconsistencies in icon design. Those may well be hammered out in days ahead." What. Reminds me of how Microsoft does (used to do?) things.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 06/13/13 11:43 UTC
"The German Parliament, the Bundestag, has introduced a joint motion against software patents. The resolution urges the German government to take steps to limit the granting of patents on computer programs. In the resolution, the Parliament says that patents on software restrict developers from exercising their copyright privileges, including the right to distribute their programs as Free Software. They promote the creation of monopolies in the software market, and hurt innovation and job creation." After New Zealand, we now have one of the most powerful economies in the world moving to ban software patents for all the reasons smart people have been outlining for years. also: "The government should also push to ensure that software is covered by copyright alone, and that patent offices (including the European Patent Office) stop granting patents on software." Germany is not a country the EU can ignore. Very good news, this.More News »
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Member since:
2008-08-28
Something doesn't seem right about this. Either forth is emulating a more compact byte code than x86, or it's executing native x86 code. I don't understand how it can be both smaller and as efficient as assembly, can you elaborate?
But while reading "Starting Forth" you surely noticed, where I copy the above from?
I understand that statement, that using Forth words, instead of coding in assembly, usually overall size of your code is smaller, when programming in Forth. I think, it depends on quality of macroassembler you can use, quality of Forth compiler, which you're comparing to - and, of course, on your skills both as assembler- and Forth-coder.
No. Actually, programming in Forth is rather "designing one's own problem-specific language". Forth is the basis. Then instead of using ready-available high-level function (which you'll find in langs like Python), you're designing your own higher-level language using Forth words.
The question is difficult to answer (at least for me) because I don't have the time to implement the same program in a dozen different languages to compare the relative difficulty.
Of course, it's not that easy to measure it. Since I'm Forth-newbie (learning it about year for now), you may be interested in asking these questions on comp.lang.forth, where you'll meet several experienced Forth-programmers, coding in Forth more than 20 years.