Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 18:51 UTC
Internet & Networking It's official now. The signs had been there for a while now. While the west bangs on about the importance of freedom and democracy, they don't actually want anyone to have too much of it. The US, France, and the UK have jointly pretty much declared war on freedom on the web.
Thread beginning with comment 476702
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
@Thom - Core freedom???
by allanregistos on Fri 10th Jun 2011 00:15 UTC
allanregistos
Member since:
2011-02-10

@Thom:
"The Netherlands is often seen as somewhat of a guiding light when it comes to matters that touch the very core of freedom and human rights (same-sex marriage, euthanasia, and so on), and I am hoping that like with those matters, other countries will soon follow in our footsteps. "

First:
You include same-sex marriage a core of human freedom? That is highly subjective and often based on the background of who shouted it. You can't claim same sex marriage as "core" as it will ultimately destroy a society where people only chooses their marriage partner of the same sex thus defeating the very core of human freedom = procreation. And don't tell me that their might be technology in the future to overcome same-marriage limitations. I can claim the same basic right not to pollute my family from same sex marriage, for that is my basic _right_ as a human.

Second:
You did not mention that lately U.N. declares that internet access is a basic human right, how does it affect the war promulgated by the countries you mentioned against the web?

Reply Score: 0

RE: @Thom - Core freedom???
by edgeofsanity on Fri 10th Jun 2011 04:14 in reply to "@Thom - Core freedom???"
edgeofsanity Member since:
2011-06-10

I don't think a country (you know I'm talking about NL) with active discrimination against middle eastern people or for what Thom calls "non-western" is not a guiding light for freedom.

Would it make a very conservative country heaven for freedom if they allows same sex marriage?

I honestly, don't get these so called westerns need to distinguish themselves. I'm not from Chile but that comment has no place in this article. Any country that passes a law in favor of its people, is clearly a country with working democracy (a democracy not bought by big companies). In my point of view.

On the subject, Google always shows it self as the bringer of free web to countries. I wonder what it will do if this thing becomes a reality.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: @Thom - Core freedom???
by r_a_trip on Fri 10th Jun 2011 09:54 in reply to "@Thom - Core freedom???"
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

@AllanRegistos.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the social construct of marriage is completely unnecessary for procreation. Procreation just requires two fertile and aroused humans with the appropriate sexual equipment.

Married or not, if a fertile spermatozoid meets a fertile ovum, we'll have a party for the newcomer 9 months later. If the child is a "bastard", I'll love it as much as any other kid. Will you do the same?

When it comes to homosexuals, they won't procreate together no matter if marriage is involved or not. So being married is immaterial to procreation. Humans procreated even before we invented marriage.

My hunch here is that this is just male religious machismo. Men who feel threatened by males who do not share their tastes for the opposite sex. Or women who forego their "irresistable" charms.

If our God is really so appalled by men on men and female on female relationships, why hasn't it rained fire and brimstone already to purge the earth from this "evil"?

My guess is that God loves all her children, warts and all. It's just insecure men who project their own evil smallmindedness on the devine. I wonder how many times God has cried over atrocities justified as "the will of God" and committed "in the name of God".

Furthermore, your marriage or anyone elses for that matter isn't threatened by same sex marriages. Every marriage is threatened by only one thing; taking your spouse for granted.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: @Thom - Core freedom???
by Neolander on Fri 10th Jun 2011 11:38 in reply to "RE: @Thom - Core freedom???"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Big +1 to this. Marriage is for putting an administrative, official status, on a couple. Procreation is only about biology. I couldn't care less if people of the same sex marry as long as I've still got the right to marry people of the opposite sex on my side, in fact I think such an equal footing would be much more healthy than the current situation.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: @Thom - Core freedom???
by zimbatm on Fri 10th Jun 2011 10:03 in reply to "@Thom - Core freedom???"
zimbatm Member since:
2005-08-22

You include same-sex marriage a core of human freedom? That is highly subjective and often based on the background of who shouted it. You can't claim same sex marriage as "core" as it will ultimately destroy a society where people only chooses their marriage partner of the same sex thus defeating the very core of human freedom = procreation. And don't tell me that their might be technology in the future to overcome same-marriage limitations. I can claim the same basic right not to pollute my family from same sex marriage, for that is my basic _right_ as a human.


Going from "same-sex marriage" to "it will destroy society" is really a far-fetched argument. Research has shown that there has always been around 10% of the population that is gay. Now it's up to you to choose if you want to criminalize them or let them live a normal life.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: @Thom - Core freedom???
by WereCatf on Fri 10th Jun 2011 12:13 in reply to "@Thom - Core freedom???"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

You can't claim same sex marriage as "core" as it will ultimately destroy a society where people only chooses their marriage partner of the same sex


I'm sorry, but.. your argument is BS: even if something is a core freedom it doesn't mean everyone chooses to utilize that said freedom. For example everyone has the freedom to be straight, yet not everyone is that. Similarly, everyone has the right and freedom to be gay, yet still not everyone is that.

You include same-sex marriage a core of human freedom? That is highly subjective and often based on the background of who shouted it.


Ask yourself, what IS marriage anyways? Isn't it an event where people proclaim their affection to eachothers and their wish to try to uphold that affection and everything it entails until the end of their lives? Thus, doesn't EVERYONE have the right to proclaim their affection toward another person, to promise to care for and look after them?

Either you claim that no, people do NOT have the right to publicly reveal their feelings to others and to care for them unless they fit your definition of what human beings should be, or that everyone has that right.

thus defeating the very core of human freedom = procreation.


Freedom is exactly that: a choice to do or not to do. Trying to limit marriage to only heterosexual couples that want to have children is not freedom for anyone, it's religious racism.

Edited 2011-06-10 12:20 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

I'm sorry, but.. your argument is BS: even if something is a core freedom it doesn't mean everyone chooses to utilize that said freedom. For example everyone has the freedom to be straight, yet not everyone is that. Similarly, everyone has the right and freedom to be gay, yet still not everyone is that.

Without law, there is chaos. It is about choices(to gay or not), but you cannot abuse the freedom because you choose to be a homo and want to have a marriage of the same sex.


Ask yourself, what IS marriage anyways? Isn't it an event where people proclaim their affection to each others and their wish to try to uphold that affection and everything it entails until the end of their lives? Thus, doesn't EVERYONE have the right to proclaim their affection toward another person, to promise to care for and look after them?

Yes we do have that rights, but marriage can only be done between a man and a woman. Do that with same sex marriages, and we have a corrupt society. Most STDs comes from these abuses.

Yes, I know, western people are liberated and consider my argument to be so conservative and obsolete and BS, but in the end, we will see which of our societies will flourish. A society where everything was permitted for the sake of _freedom_ and a society where it upholds the integrity of the family including marriage.


Freedom is exactly that: a choice to do or not to do. Trying to limit marriage to only heterosexual couples that want to have children is not freedom for anyone, it's religious racism.

That is why we have laws. You cannot exercise your freedom for the sake of freedom but in respect to what the law permits in a given society. Not to limit the freedom of man but to save man from corruption. Religious racism holds only to those people who try to get rid of religious views.

Edited 2011-06-11 00:23 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: @Thom - Core freedom???
by phoudoin on Fri 10th Jun 2011 13:33 in reply to "@Thom - Core freedom???"
phoudoin Member since:
2006-06-09

"... ultimately destroy a society where people only chooses their marriage partner of the same sex thus defeating the very core of human freedom = procreation"

Polygamy will be a better solution, then.
What? It's forbidden too!?
You're kidding? No?!
I don't get it.

Oh, BTW, how procreation saved humanity before societies's invent the marriage concept?

Reply Parent Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10



Oh, BTW, how procreation saved humanity before societies's invent the marriage concept?

Do I have to tell you sir that it preserves human from extinction?
And that children will be perfectly healthy given if they have both a mother and a father caring for them from 0 year old to age of maturity and become responsible parents themselves?

Do I need to spoon feed you with evidence?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: @Thom - Core freedom???
by Soulbender on Fri 10th Jun 2011 16:34 in reply to "@Thom - Core freedom???"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

You do know it's perfectly possible to procreate without marriage, right?

Reply Parent Score: 2

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

You do know it's perfectly possible to procreate without marriage, right?


Yes I know, I know. It is possible, but children needs caring parents. But as someone posted, that if a bastard child shows up, we need also to care to them. But do you think all illegitimate children ends up of being good citizens? And all illegitimate children ends up in a healthy environment?
So preserving the integrity of marriage is to preserve a healthy society.

BttT.

Reply Parent Score: 1

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

What exactly do you believe would stop a same sex marriage couple from procreating? And if your going to talk about it being unnatural they you really haven't ever looked at human history or the rest of the animal kingdom.

Besides, one would think it'd make the puritans happy as all get out; they only need endure the shame of what other consenting adults do behind closed doors for a generation before it all magically ends itself. (cause gender preference surely must be hereditary)

Reply Parent Score: 2