Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 9th Jun 2011 18:51 UTC
Internet & Networking It's official now. The signs had been there for a while now. While the west bangs on about the importance of freedom and democracy, they don't actually want anyone to have too much of it. The US, France, and the UK have jointly pretty much declared war on freedom on the web.
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RE[3]: @Thom - Core freedom???
by Liskat on Sat 11th Jun 2011 02:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: @Thom - Core freedom???"
Liskat
Member since:
2011-06-11

@ Werecatf

Both of you are right, but seeing it from a different point of view.

From a religious standpoint gay marriage can't be done because in almost all religions homosexuality is prohibited (Think: procreation, a new set of rules as husband and wife and the vow of faithfulness and respect towards each other). You shouldn't want to change a specific religion.

So you see, this marriage concept came together to bond a man and female in front of God to take their blessings from God. These religions have greatly influenced our laws through history. While some of you aren't religious (or won't admit), you can't ignore that most of today's culture derives from those views.

I don't even know why you would want to marry if you're gay except for...

In the world we live in these days we don't have to love each other to marry, we don't even have to know each other. Some marry strippers they know 1 night. Some marriages last 2 weeks. We can choose whether we want to do it in a church, mosque, at a beach, at home with or without a priest or whatever.

For the law it's more a administration kinda deal, a contract between two partners if you will. Build your party or event around it.

Should gay people allowed to get married? By law I think so. Being gay isn't illegal. Should gays allowed to get married by a priest or in a religious setting? I think not.

Peace.

Edited 2011-06-11 02:16 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Your intentions are good, and I fully respect them. But I think that in some areas, your post takes some logical shortcuts, which harms its credibility.

From a religious standpoint gay marriage can't be done because in almost all religions homosexuality is prohibited (Think: procreation, a new set of rules as husband and wife

Alright...

and the vow of faithfulness and respect towards each other).

...but why is the last one incompatible with homosexuality ? You can be faithful with someone of the same sex and respect it, isn't it ?

You shouldn't want to change a specific religion.

Have to give you that, as it's one of my core gripes with most religions. I only have respect for religious structures which encourage criticizing the dogma, interpreting texts differently, and as a whole bringing new fresh ideas into the mix. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

These religions have greatly influenced our laws through history. While some of you aren't religious (or won't admit), you can't ignore that most of today's culture derives from those views.

The word "derives" is important. Culture has taken lessons from the traditional religious society, but since then it has moved on and gone a separate path. Conversely, religions have adapted themselves to the culture before them when building up, as an example many work-free days of the Christian religion are designed to match those of the European societies before them.

Culture is constantly in flow, you can't take it at a specific point of the past and say that it was the right way. The only relevant point in the flow of culture is the present, because it is what people care about here and now. The opinion of dead people on cultural questions shouldn't matter more than the opinion of living ones.

I don't even know why you would want to marry if you're gay except for...

...telling yourselves that you love each other ? It is one popular reason for marrying nowadays, and one that is independent on the couple members' sex.

Should gay people allowed to get married? By law I think so. Being gay isn't illegal. Should gays allowed to get married by a priest or in a religious setting? I think not.

And this I almost agree with, save for one problem again : culture is in flow. You don't know what tomorrow's religions will look like. Maybe some existing religions will mutate to allow gay people to marry. In that case, if both the couple and the priest want it, why should it be forbidden ?

What we agree with, I think, is that priests shouldn't be forced to marry homosexual people if they don't want to. That's basic freedom of religion. But if they want, why should the law prevent them ? What the law should do is to allow religious homosexual marriage, but not force it on priests, in my opinion.

Edited 2011-06-11 08:11 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Should gay people allowed to get married? By law I think so. Being gay isn't illegal. Should gays allowed to get married by a priest or in a religious setting? I think not.


In The Netherlands, the first country to legalise same-sex marriage, we have the sane structure: you actually marry twice. There's the legal wedding, which is done at city hall by a government representative. This is the only marriage that counts as far as the law is concerned. Since our entire constitution is built around the concept of unconditional equality (article 1), this legal marriage cannot exclude same-sex marriage without violating your constitutional rights.

You can then choose to have this followed up by a ceremonial wedding. In a church, mosque, synagogue, or even on the beach, in the forest, or at home with friends and family. It's entirely optional, and has no legal basis whatsoever. If you only get married in a church - then there is no marriage as far as the law is concerned.

The interesting bit though is that while you would expect churches to not accept same-sex marriages - a lot of them actually do. Many churches welcome same-sex marriage with the same open arms as 'regular' marriages. The reason for that is simple: anyone who has ever truly read the bible and who truly considers himself a christian (i.e., following the teachings *of Jesus Christ*) understands full well that Jesus would actually wholeheartedly approve of same-sex marriage, sex out of wedlock, divorce, and all these things.

You cannot call yourself a christian and then not follow the teachings of christ. The new testament should always overrule the old testament, and many churches in The Netherlands understand that. Most christians in the world are actually not christians at all; they're... old testamentians (or whatever).

World of difference.

Moral of the story: it is not up to the state to decide who is allowed to get married. As far as the state is concerned, marriage is a legal construct, nothing more, nothing less. Churches are free to colour in marriage as they deem fit, and if that excludes same-sex marriage, then fine - no matter how retarded and anti-christian I personally find that.

In fact - I have no problems with polygamy either, for instance. It's not for me, but if fully consenting adults want to have such a life? It's none of my - or the state's - goddamn business.

Reply Parent Score: 1

WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

From a religious standpoint gay marriage can't be done because in almost all religions homosexuality is prohibited


I doubt it's "in almost all" as there's plenty of religions that actually do not prohibit such. One of the larger, popular religions is hinduism, for example.

You shouldn't want to change a specific religion.


Indeed, I am not even wanting to change religious behaviour in this case.

I don't even know why you would want to marry if you're gay except for...


As I explained, marriage can be seen in two different ways: one is the religious bind, and the other is where the bind is between the people themselves.

Now ask yourself, why would people wish to declare their affection and love to another person publicly and you should already have the answer to your question.

For the law it's more a administration kinda deal, a contract between two partners if you will. Build your party or event around it.


Indeed, but there's plenty of countries where only heterosexual couples are given special treatment by the law, homosexual people are excluded.

Should gays allowed to get married by a priest or in a religious setting?


Of course they should be allowed to do it, if they find a priest or similar representative of the religion who is willing to do it. The law shouldn't force those aforementioned representatives to do it, that I agree with, but they shouldn't be denied either.

Reply Parent Score: 2