Linked by David Adams on Fri 5th Aug 2011 16:08 UTC
A couple of days ago I read a blog post by Stephen Ramsay, a professor at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and a Fellow at the Center for Digital Research in the Humanities. In it, he mentions that he has all but abandoned the GUI and finds the command line to be "faster, easier to understand, easier to integrate, more scalable, more portable, more sustainable, more consistent, and many, many times more flexible than even the most well-thought-out graphical apps." I found this very thought-provoking, because, like Ramsay, I spend a lot of time thinking about "The Future of Computing," and I think that the CLI, an interface from the past, might have a place in the interface of the future.
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RE[3]: Two distinct beasts...
by dragos.pop on Mon 8th Aug 2011 14:57
in reply to "RE[2]: Two distinct beasts..."
Member since:2010-01-08
Of course, on Linux, this would never work, since the general assumption seems to be that having 900 different toolkits is a good thing. So if GUI automation is hard, it's probably because of a piss-poor implementation, or someone hasn't written the tools to do it. But doesn't that work the same way on CLIs? I mean, SOMEONE has to build in pipes and stuff if you really want to do something useful with it ...
Not necessary... it would work, but you have to chose the solution made for the toolkit that your app is build upon. Plus sending key and mouse events might work the same on all toolkits (but the recognition of widgets is not so portable).
Plus Qt offers an easy way to integrate scripting into your app (if it is open source or you are developing it).
RE[3]: Two distinct beasts...
by benjymouse on Mon 8th Aug 2011 17:03
in reply to "RE[2]: Two distinct beasts..."
Member since:2011-08-06
Actually, no it isn't... at least on Windows, it's quite easy:
http://www.autoitscript.com/site/autoit
The only exception to this is if apps don't use standard widgets, which is one of about 486472343 reasons why I'm a fan of standards in this regard.
http://www.autoitscript.com/site/autoit
The only exception to this is if apps don't use standard widgets, which is one of about 486472343 reasons why I'm a fan of standards in this regard.
Relying on widget types and -IDs for automation is inherently error prone and extremely brittle. I can never be more than a band-aid in the absence of a real automation framework.
All types of problems crop up: When suddenly an error message is displayed, when the dialog flow changes because of some unforeseen state, when timing issues crop up. Not to mention how enormously difficult it is to have robust error control in such an automated script. Or when a new version is released and IDs or widget types changes, when drop-down boxes doesn't contain the expected (and hard-wired) values. etc. etc.
Of course, on Linux, this would never work, since the general assumption seems to be that having 900 different toolkits is a good thing. So if GUI automation is hard, it's probably because of a piss-poor implementation, or someone hasn't written the tools to do it. But doesn't that work the same way on CLIs? I mean, SOMEONE has to build in pipes and stuff if you really want to do something useful with it ...
I wouldn't fault Linux for this. You were never supposed to rely on widget types and/or ID in the first place. The only ones who can reliably use those are the very developers of the apps who can use it for automated testing. The rest of us should stay away from it.
A much better solution is being developed with PowerShell. PowerShell "cmdlets" are suitable for sharing implementation with GUI application "command" patterns. Indeed this is what Exchange and several other MS server apps do now: They implement the cmdlets *first* and then build a GUI on top of those. The GUI then becomes the composition tool for PowerShell command pipelines.
The Exchange admin GUI will even show you the very PowerShell command pipeline it will execute and let use cut-and-paste it for automation.
PowerShell cmdlets are designed (unlike the typical *nix shell) for in-process execution, hence they can consume and produce strongly-typed in-process objects which makes it much more usable for actual GUI automation. In essense the GUI becomes a way to combine and design CLI commands.
RE[4]: Two distinct beasts...
by WorknMan on Tue 9th Aug 2011 02:42
in reply to "RE[3]: Two distinct beasts..."
Member since:2005-11-13
All types of problems crop up: When suddenly an error message is displayed, when the dialog flow changes because of some unforeseen state, when timing issues crop up.
I've never had an issue with timing when using controlsend to a certain widget/id. But, as you state, you may have to make some minor modifications if/when a new version is released and the developer changes things that directly affects your script, but wouldn't that be the case for CLI apps as well, if they change the command-line syntax?
Of course, GUI automation isn't the ideal way to get things done; I was just pointing out that it's not exceedingly difficult either, and certainly not impossible. In fact, I do it all the time
Edited 2011-08-09 02:44 UTC
News
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/18/13 21:06 UTC
"At the end of a week in which Electronic Arts confirmed it wasn't developing a thing for the Wii U, one of the software engineers in EA Sports' Canada studio, in a series of since-deleted tweets, disparaged the console as 'crap' and suggested Nintendo should give up on hardware altogether. 'The Wii U is crap. Less powerful than an Xbox 360. Poor online/store. Weird tablet', tweeted Bob Summerwill, listed as a senior software engineer at EA Canada, in a reply to a tweet posting a link about EA's no-Wii U news. 'Nintendo are walking dead at this point'." The Wii U is turning into the 21st century's Virtual Boy.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/18/13 7:37 UTC
"In NixOS, the entire operating system - the kernel, applications, system packages, configuration files, and so on - is built by the Nix package manager from a description in a purely functional build language. The fact that it's purely functional essentially means that building a new configuration cannot overwrite previous configurations. Most of the other features follow from this." Interesting approach. A Linux distribution, sure, but with some very refreshing ideas about system configuration.
Linked by fran on 05/18/13 1:38 UTC
Appfour added, among other features, C/C++ support to its new version of AIDE. From Android-IDE, "Now you can write parts of your app or your whole app in C/C++ on your device. AIDE supports the Standard Android NDK toolchain (GCC 4.6 + Bionic, STL, ...). No changes are necessary if you want to build an app developed on a PC with Eclipse. C/C++ development is fully integrated: Build errors appear in the error list and files can easily be navigated to with Go to file. The editor supports C/C++ syntax highlighting."
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/17/13 23:35 UTC, submitted by kragil
Ars nails it: "The answer is that Google did announce what amounts to a fairly substantial Android update yesterday. They simply did it without adding to the update fragmentation problems that continue to plague the platform. By focusing on these changes and not the apparently-waiting-in-the-wings update to the core software, Google is showing us one of the ways in which it's trying to fix the update problem."
Linked by MOS6510 on 05/17/13 22:22 UTC
"It is good for programmers to understand what goes on inside a processor. The CPU is at the heart of our career. What goes on inside the CPU? How long does it take for one instruction to run? What does it mean when a new CPU has a 12-stage pipeline, or 18-stage pipeline, or even a 'deep' 31-stage pipeline? Programs generally treat the CPU as a black box. Instructions go into the box in order, instructions come out of the box in order, and some processing magic happens inside. As a programmer, it is useful to learn what happens inside the box. This is especially true if you will be working on tasks like program optimization. If you don't know what is going on inside the CPU, how can you optimize for it? This article is about what goes on inside the x86 processor's deep pipeline."
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/17/13 22:15 UTC, submitted by Tom
"It was the only moment I heard regret slip into Otellini's voice during the several hours of conversations I had with him. 'The lesson I took away from that was, while we like to speak with data around here, so many times in my career I've ended up making decisions with my gut, and I should have followed my gut,' he said. 'My gut told me to say yes.'" The world would've been a much different place - Apple would have been less dependant on Samsung for its chips, which probably would've meant less money for Samsung to develop its Galaxy business.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/16/13 21:41 UTC
Glass is getting some love at Google I/O as well. New applications have been released - Facebook, Twitter, Evernote, Elle, Tumblr, and CNN. Perhaps more interesting: the newly announced Google Glass Developer Kit will allow offline applications and direct hardware access - great for hacking and expanding Glass' potential. This kit will really allow hackers to put Glass through its paces.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/16/13 17:04 UTC
"But Beck and Merrill decided that simply banning toxic players wasn't an acceptable solution for their game. Riot Games began experimenting with more constructive modes of player management through a formal player behavior initiative that actually conducts controlled experiments on its player base to see what helps reduce bad behavior. The results of that initiative have been shared at a lecture at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and on panels at the Penny Arcade Expo East and the Game Developers Conference." Absolutely fascinating stuff. I'm a League of Legends player, and to be honest, the community isn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be. I'm happy Riot games has the guts to employ science to address the issue.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/16/13 13:17 UTC
"Android and iOS, the number one and number two ranked smartphone operating systems worldwide, combined for 92.3% of all smartphone shipments during the first quarter of 2013 as Windows Phone crept past BlackBerry for 3rd place. According to the International Data Corporation Worldwide Quarterly Mobile Phone Tracker, Android smartphone vendors and Apple shipped a total of 199.5 million units worldwide during 1Q13, up 59.1% from the 125.4 million units shipped during 1Q12." Windows Phone doubles from a few to twice few, iOS loser market share as its growth is slower than that of the overall market. BlackBerry continues slide into irrelevance.
Linked by Thom Holwerda on 05/16/13 12:06 UTC
"According to the latest research from our Wireless Smartphone Strategies service, global Android smartphone profits reached US$5 billion in total during the first quarter of 2013. Samsung dominated and captured an impressive 95 percent share of all Android smartphone profits." Wow.More News »
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2005-11-13
Well, GUI is not inherently a superset of CLI - it's a COMPANION. Meaning, each is better at some tasks than the other, so they go together like sugar and kool-aid, and I wouldn't be without either. Why must everything be turned into a pissing contest?
When it comes to GUIs, some have said how it's easier to pull up files in a CLI, like when you need to copy all files that are older than a certain date and with a certain extension. But what if you need to copy about 50 random files from a directory of 300 files that don't have any specific pattern to them? In that case, it's easy to CTRL+CLICK select the ones you need and drag them wherever. Similarly, the article mentions how it would be easier to manipulate music playlists, but what if you've got a playlist with 300 songs, and you want to custom sort them? Again, it's going to be easier to just drag stuff where you want them.
Of course, one could list dozens of examples were CLIs would be more useful... as I said before, it's not about which one is 'better', because that depends on the context.
Actually, no it isn't... at least on Windows, it's quite easy:
http://www.autoitscript.com/site/autoit
The only exception to this is if apps don't use standard widgets, which is one of about 486472343 reasons why I'm a fan of standards in this regard. Of course, on Linux, this would never work, since the general assumption seems to be that having 900 different toolkits is a good thing. So if GUI automation is hard, it's probably because of a piss-poor implementation, or someone hasn't written the tools to do it. But doesn't that work the same way on CLIs? I mean, SOMEONE has to build in pipes and stuff if you really want to do something useful with it ...