Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 4th Sep 2011 15:48 UTC
Legal "Secret U.S. government cables show a stunning willingness by senior Canadian officials to appease American demands (more here) for a U.S.-style copyright law here. The documents describe Canadian officials as encouraging American lobbying efforts. They also cite cabinet minister Maxime Bernier raising the possibility of showing U.S. officials a draft bill before tabling it in Parliament. The cables, from the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa, even have a policy director for then industry minister Tony Clement suggesting it might help U.S. demands for a tough copyright law if Canada were placed among the worst offenders on an international piracy watch list. Days later, the U.S. placed Canada alongside China and Russia on the list." Unbelievable. Suddenly I understand why the SFPD had no qualms about acting as henchmen for Apple goons to violate someone's constitutional rights. If a government is messed up, it only makes sense this is reflected in the corporate policies of its prime corporations.
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RE[2]: Human mess
by zima on Sun 4th Sep 2011 18:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Human mess"
zima
Member since:
2005-07-06

Well I wrote (original emphasis / italics maintained):

not the only route such influences propagate. The relationships are vastly more complex. Ultimately, systems of governance are also a reflection of their societies...

So I'm not quite sure what "government is not as clearly(??) a reflection of the public as you indicated" (emphasis mine) would mean - other than essentially retreating to the popular sentiments of avoiding basically any liability (mental/internal or otherwise) from how we are also very much responsible for the actions of our govs. Escaping to "us vs. them" ("they are the filthy, the guilty, the evil ones")

No, it is us. Also in who we collectively choose to promote to public positions, what traits we cherish there, in the end.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Human mess
by Alfman on Sun 4th Sep 2011 18:55 in reply to "RE[2]: Human mess"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

zima,

"So I'm not quite sure what 'government is not as clearly(??) a reflection of the public as you indicated'"

I meant exactly that, I'm still not sure what the issue is you are taking with my statement? If I misunderstood your view, then I apologize

"No, it is us. Also in who we collectively choose to promote to public positions, what traits we cherish there, in the end."

It still seems to me that you are assuming that corruption in government is purely a reflection of corruption in individuals, without considering that perhaps non-corrupt individuals face more challenges in politics than corrupt ones.

Keep in mind, a dishonest politician has all the maneuvers that an honest politician has, and then some. To the extent that he doesn't miscalculate the risks of his dishonest actions, he has more opportunities than the honest politician, all else being equal.

Edited 2011-09-04 19:07 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Human mess
by zima on Sun 4th Sep 2011 19:57 in reply to "RE[3]: Human mess"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

I stress a complex web of interrelations in societal dynamics. "Govs reflecting their society" being just one of them (but not a bad one to point out specifically, with how wilfully overlooked and/or denied it is typically...), what else the emphasised, more than once, "also" could mean?

[...] non-corrupt individuals face more challenges in politics than corrupt ones. [...] a dishonest politician [...] has more opportunities than the honest politician, all else being equal.

And who allows for such state of affairs? Heck, in moderately functional liberal democracies, who votes in those people? Why the society doesn't care to see enough through the dirty tricks? Why it is... so often wrong in promoting their new mythical honest idol?

Those are our failures.

(oh, and "all else being equal" could just as well mean firm, strict, equal for all enforcement of fair and sustainable rules, of the so called values humans typically declare to cherish...)

Reply Parent Score: 1