Linked by David Adams on Thu 29th Sep 2011 23:47 UTC, submitted by lucas_maximus
Linux Linux is struggling on the desktop because it only has a small number of "great" apps, according to the Gnome co-creator. Miguel de Icaza, co-creator of the Gnome desktop, told tech journalist Tim Anderson at the recent Windows 8 Build conference "When you count how many great desktop apps there are on Linux, you can probably name 10," de Icaza said, according to a post on Anderson's IT Writing blog. "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."
Thread beginning with comment 491236
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[2]: Misleading article title
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Misleading article title"
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

I do recall Miguel talking in the past about the need for Gnome to keep legacy APIs in place so that applications written years ago can still run without modification today. Perhaps his point was that Gnome is a moving target.


I have some help for Miguel to find freedom software applications:

http://www.fsf.org/news/directory-relaunch

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed

Unfrotunately, both Miguel and the Free Software Foundation tend very much to utterly ignore KDE and Qt applications, which are easily amongst the best free software desktop applications available today.

I can perhaps help there, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_KDE_applications

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt

KDE also features platform abstraction layers such as Phonon and Solid, which effectively will allow applications written (or updated) in the past few years to still run without modification in many years time.

Miguel: "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!

Enjoy!

Edited 2011-09-30 01:35 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

"I do recall Miguel talking in the past about the need for Gnome to keep legacy APIs in place so that applications written years ago can still run without modification today. Perhaps his point was that Gnome is a moving target.


I have some help for Miguel to find freedom software applications:

http://www.fsf.org/news/directory-relaunch

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed

Unfrotunately, both Miguel and the Free Software Foundation tend very much to utterly ignore KDE and Qt applications, which are easily amongst the best free software desktop applications available today.

I can perhaps help there, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_KDE_applications

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt

KDE also features platform abstraction layers such as Phonon and Solid, which effectively will allow applications written (or updated) in the past few years to still run without modification in many years time.

Miguel: "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!

Enjoy!
"

I can't even name 5 good linux GUI applications.

Reply Parent Score: 0

Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

So what is a good really succesful Windows application these days ?

Photoshop ? Ohh, no, that also works on Mac OS X
Microsoft Office ? Ohh, same as Photoshop.
Firefox/Chrome, platform independent, even less of a Windows application.

Games ? They are not really GUI apps are they ?

I'm a terrible desktop user, so I wouldn't know.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: KDE & QT
by ngaio on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:48 in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading article title"
ngaio Member since:
2005-10-06

I like Quanta Plus. I've used it for many years. It has many strengths. It is no longer part of the KDE family. There is no replacement. Effectively its legs have been cut off from under it, and it's been taken to the graveyard to starve to death. Not cool.

Plus, please remember it's not about how many applications there are -- it's all about the quality. Miguel has very high standards. (Yet it must be noted he is extremely generous and welcoming towards code contributors).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: KDE & QT
by roverrobot on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:34 in reply to "RE[3]: KDE & QT"
roverrobot Member since:
2006-07-23

Miguel has very high standards.


hahahaha....

Oh, you are serious? Which piece of software that Mr high standard have created is not buggy and bloated?

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[4]: KDE & QT
by manjabes on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:58 in reply to "RE[3]: KDE & QT"
manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

Plus, please remember it's not about how many applications there are -- it's all about the quality.


This. A thousand times this.

Not a 73rd shitty iTunes clone!

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: KDE & QT
by ngaio on Sat 1st Oct 2011 16:49 in reply to "RE[3]: KDE & QT"
ngaio Member since:
2005-10-06

I like Quanta Plus. I've used it for many years. It has many strengths. It is no longer part of the KDE family. There is no replacement. Effectively its legs have been cut off from under it, and it's been taken to the graveyard to starve to death. Not cool.


I'm happy to be wrong. It seems Quanta Plus is being resurrected in the form of a plugin for kdevelop:

http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/quanta-plus-for-kde4/

This is excellent news. I hope it works out.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications.


Yes, linux has so many great applications that users are flocking to it in great numbers........

The truth of the matter is that there is a handful of half-assed applications that works some of the time and then you update you system and another set of half-assed apps works.

This is not a good situation and users do generally not have great patience with it. The most idealistic of users stay with the system for about 6 months then go :f**k it....

Linux developers needs to listen to Miguel a lot more because he is talking sense.

Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.

Step 2: Provide stable API's and ABI's so that programs will work for a long time without excessive maintenance.

Step 3: Test the programs before releasing.

It seems that everyone involved with free software has a Lisus Thorvalds in the stomach and wants to single-handedly f**k the system up.
Please stop that!

Reply Parent Score: 2

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications.
Yes, linux has so many great applications that users are flocking to it in great numbers........ The truth of the matter is that there is a handful of half-assed applications that works some of the time and then you update you system and another set of half-assed apps works. This is not a good situation and users do generally not have great patience with it. The most idealistic of users stay with the system for about 6 months then go :f**k it.... "

Unsupported claims. You saying something does not make it so.

Linux developers needs to listen to Miguel a lot more because he is talking sense. Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages. Step 2: Provide stable API's and ABI's so that programs will work for a long time without excessive maintenance. Step 3: Test the programs before releasing.


Freedom software doesn't require a stable ABI.

As for the rest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_Quick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_Creator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_%28programming_language~*~@...

It seems that everyone involved with free software has a Lisus Thorvalds in the stomach and wants to single-handedly f**k the system up. Please stop that!


WTF?

Reply Parent Score: 2

Stephen! Member since:
2007-11-24

Yes, linux has so many great applications that users are flocking to it in great numbers........


Then again, it's not as if Apple really fares that much better, given the marketshare of OSX compared to Windows.

Edited 2011-09-30 10:14 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

CodeMonkey Member since:
2005-09-22

Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.


Last time I checked any programming language you can imagine usually gets Linux support first before anything else. As far as "modern" languages go:

C++11, Java7, Python3, Ruby19, Haskell, ..., etc.

If you're definition of "Modern" programming languages only consists of the latest and greatest iteration of C# then I guess I can see your point. But if you actually consider other modern languages then Linux definitely leads the pack in supported platforms.

Reply Parent Score: 7

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Update breakage or lack there of tends to be a competitive attribute between distributions. What distribution are you using that breaks applications with each update and why haven't you considered using a better managed distribution?

Reply Parent Score: 1

twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11


Linux developers needs to listen to Miguel a lot more because he is talking sense.

Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.

Step 2: Provide stable API's and ABI's so that programs will work for a long time without excessive maintenance.

Step 3: Test the programs before releasing.



Step 4: Focus on a toolkit not 100, focus on a single graphics stack not 100, focus at a single app/app group. No need to reinvent the wheel 1000 times.

Step 5: Use some good programming languages. Python and Shell Scripting aren't for general software development, really. They are for frustrated foss enthusiasts too lazy/incapable to learn something actually good for desktop/system programming.

Step 6: Try to implement a good system architecture. I.e. ALSA is a mess, X11 is a mess, Pulse Audio is a mess, HAL is a mess, Init is a mess, CUPS is a mess, udev is a mess.

Step 7: If ain't good, don't release it. The world doesn't need yet another window manager, yet another text editor, and so on. The fact that you can apt-get or yum install everything from a central repository doesn't make for the fact of that repository being full of crapware.

Step 8: Optimize, make it work. Too much slowness, too many crashes.

Step 9: Stable API, Stable ABI.

Step 10: Stable API, Stable ABI.

....................................................

Step 1000: Stable API, Stable ABI.

Reply Parent Score: 1

demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09


Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!


And yet, how many of these apps are truly great & how many are just repeatedly called great without actually being so?

Reply Parent Score: 2

Wafflez Member since:
2011-06-26

Personally, i know only one good Linux desktop program - Amarok 1.4
Amarok 2 and foobar are just crap compared to this masterpiece. ;)

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Misleading article title
by Fergy on Fri 30th Sep 2011 19:49 in reply to "RE[3]: Misleading article title"
Fergy Member since:
2006-04-10

Personally, i know only one good Linux desktop program - Amarok 1.4
Amarok 2 and foobar are just crap compared to this masterpiece. ;)

I can't imagine how you can call foobar crap... Especially when you can call anything with the name Amarok a masterpiece...

Edited 2011-09-30 19:49 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"I do recall Miguel talking in the past about the need for Gnome to keep legacy APIs in place so that applications written years ago can still run without modification today. Perhaps his point was that Gnome is a moving target.


I have some help for Miguel to find freedom software applications:

http://www.fsf.org/news/directory-relaunch

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed

Unfrotunately, both Miguel and the Free Software Foundation tend very much to utterly ignore KDE and Qt applications, which are easily amongst the best free software desktop applications available today.

I can perhaps help there, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_KDE_applications

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt

KDE also features platform abstraction layers such as Phonon and Solid, which effectively will allow applications written (or updated) in the past few years to still run without modification in many years time.

Miguel: "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!

Enjoy!
"

Please also consider the number of users of those existing applications in your DE(GNOME/KDE).

Reply Parent Score: 1

jyper Member since:
2011-10-03

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed


I disagree with him but that is a very poor rebuttal(home many of those are good?). A better rebuttal would be to list specific good applications.

Edited 2011-10-03 09:42 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

With "software that uses Qt" we have there Gadu Gadu for example... NVM how it isn't open, it is also a ridiculously bad (and not on a technical level, oh no, it's smooth there and easily among best open ones; it's just bad, in "concept") application you have never used.

You throw around lists of stuff you hardly use, or don't bother to compare them with other tools. "It's under KDE or Qt banner, therefore it's good" doesn't work, a lot of it is sub-par (and the DE itself tends to get in the way of doing things for some time now; luckily, even if XFCE looks like it might go the same way, there's a rapidly maturing LXDE for example)

Reply Parent Score: 2