Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 13th Oct 2011 21:33 UTC, submitted by mahmudinashar
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Ah, it's that time of the year again. We already had this up on the sidebar, but I figured we'd turn it into a proper front page item - mostly because I want to discuss the move by the Ubuntu team to no longer install GNOME 2 as the 'classic' desktop option - which pretty much ends any and all involvement for me with Ubuntu (KDE 4 here I come). There's more to this than just that, of course, so those of you who do like Unity still have enough reason to upgrade.
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RE[6]: Sigh...
by aaronb on Mon 17th Oct 2011 20:02 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Sigh..."
aaronb
Member since:
2005-07-06

You are reading a techie website yet you seem to have little understanding of what could make software unstable.

The problem with trying to force your opinions on others is additional frustration as now not only do they have to work through issues with KDE they also have to put up with people repeatedly saying "Well it works fine here so you must be wrong".

At best you could encourage people who are having issues to raise a bug report and if many people chime in with evidence of the problem it will probably be confirmed and then fixed.

At worst (what you are currently doing) is just denying the possibility that although something works for you it may not work for others.

For example, it is not a good idea for people who do not have type 1 diabetes to inject insulin just before or after meals, but injecting insulin can work great for people who do have type 1 diabetes.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Sigh...
by lemur2 on Mon 17th Oct 2011 22:17 in reply to "RE[6]: Sigh..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

You are reading a techie website yet you seem to have little understanding of what could make software unstable.


Au contraire I have many years experience at debugging and fixing software, even on real-time systems, highly complex systems and embedded systems (where diagnostic tools are often minimal, and bugs are very hard to track down).

The very first step is to figure out when and where it works, and when and where it doesn't work. Once you can reliably make it fail, the next step is to figure out what is different about when and where it fails compared to when and where it doesn't.

If there are a lot of different systems where it doesn't fail, and a few where it does, then by far the most likely site of the fault is in the places where the systems differ, rather than the places where they are common.

The problem with trying to force your opinions on others is additional frustration as now not only do they have to work through issues with KDE they also have to put up with people repeatedly saying "Well it works fine here so you must be wrong". At best you could encourage people who are having issues to raise a bug report and if many people chime in with evidence of the problem it will probably be confirmed and then fixed. At worst (what you are currently doing) is just denying the possibility that although something works for you it may not work for others. For example, it is not a good idea for people who do not have type 1 diabetes to inject insulin just before or after meals, but injecting insulin can work great for people who do have type 1 diabetes.


Der. Let me teach you how to suck eggs ...

Edited 2011-10-17 22:17 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Sigh...
by saynte on Tue 18th Oct 2011 07:04 in reply to "RE[7]: Sigh..."
saynte Member since:
2007-12-10

I agree with the grand-parent, you haven't demonstrated a sound approach to bug hunting. You've basically just shown that you're going to divert blame from KDE no matter what. The only solid crash-information that Thom provided was that the crash-handler crashed, and your diagnosis was "the kernel or some hardware". The fact that Thom blamed KDE was the right thing to do! Even if he's wrong, you start with the thing that crashed: if KMail crashes blame KMail first, if Dolphin crashes, blame Dolphin.

Just open up the KDE bug tracker, you'll find a bunch of reasons why applications could have crashed. You can't take bugs in KDE as a person affront to your virtue.

The KDE devs could certainly never take your "stick-your-head-in-the-sand" approach, if they want the fruits of their labour to improve.

I think you're just offended that people rag on KDE once in a while and you try to somehow balance it out by claiming there are no problems because YOU didn't see them. Then again, you rag on GNOME once in a while too; probably just a case of some confirmation bias.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[8]: Sigh...
by aaronb on Tue 18th Oct 2011 17:17 in reply to "RE[7]: Sigh..."
aaronb Member since:
2005-07-06

Der. Let me teach you how to suck eggs ...


This just demonstrates your inability to see things from more than one perspective.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Sigh...
by lemur2 on Mon 17th Oct 2011 22:41 in reply to "RE[6]: Sigh..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

You are reading a techie website yet you seem to have little understanding of what could make software unstable. The problem with trying to force your opinions on others is additional frustration as now not only do they have to work through issues with KDE they also have to put up with people repeatedly saying "Well it works fine here so you must be wrong". At best you could encourage people who are having issues to raise a bug report and if many people chime in with evidence of the problem it will probably be confirmed and then fixed.


Indeed. There is plenty of scope for the bug in Thom's system to be amongst one of these:

http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/_kernel_on...

... most of which, on the face of it, have nothing to do with KDE4.

At worst (what you are currently doing) is just denying the possibility that although something works for you it may not work for others.


We are discussing the most likely location for bugs on Thom's system.

How is this in any way denying that Thom's system is not working?

Edited 2011-10-17 22:42 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Sigh...
by aaronb on Tue 18th Oct 2011 17:30 in reply to "RE[7]: Sigh..."
aaronb Member since:
2005-07-06

How is this in any way denying that Thom's system is not working?


The below quotes from your posts are irrelevant when attempting to understand the root cause of a issue with a system that you do not own, we know your systems work fine and do not require further pointless repetition:

I can't think what you are doing wrong, it is beyond me. GNOME does include a number of work-arounds for parts of the kernel/driver stack that are supposed to work (but don't always). I don't believe that KDE does include kludges and work-arounds of this nature.

I, for example, have had no such trouble when running .x versions of KDE4 where x=2,4,6 or 7 (minor trouble with x=2 and 5), all on various different hardware configurations, using various different drivers, using various different distributions.

Au contraire, it is clear that no such bug exists on any of my systems, which are running the same version of KDE. None of my systems exhibit anything like the behaviour which Thom describes.

All of my well-behaved, bug-free systems and Thom's system have KDE (and KDE applications) in common.


Edited 2011-10-18 17:36 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Sigh...
by lemur2 on Tue 18th Oct 2011 00:15 in reply to "RE[6]: Sigh..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

You are reading a techie website yet you seem to have little understanding of what could make software unstable. The problem with trying to force your opinions on others is additional frustration as now not only do they have to work through issues with KDE they also have to put up with people repeatedly saying "Well it works fine here so you must be wrong". At best you could encourage people who are having issues to raise a bug report and if many people chime in with evidence of the problem it will probably be confirmed and then fixed. At worst (what you are currently doing) is just denying the possibility that although something works for you it may not work for others.


BTW, on my Acer Aspire One 522 netbook, I experienced this bug for Kubuntu Oneiric:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/818730

I have downloaded the Ubuntu 11.10 install/LiveCD from "http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/oneiric/alpha-2/oneiric-desktop-... and created a USB stick for install (with the option of no extra space for persistent files selected). I then tried to run the LiveCD on an Acer AO522 (netbook with AMD C50 dual core processor).
If I do *not* connect the wired ethernet the netbook freezes when during the boot the system is trying to use the wireless card to access the internet. If I have the wired ethernet connected to the internet, the install *does not* freeze.


Even though this bug freezes the netbook when I try to use the BCM4313 wifi via the KDE4 network manager, I do not blame KDE4 for this.

It truns out that the problem is actually with the unstable Kernel module "atl1c", which is the driver for the wired ethernet. I used the wired ethernet during the install (via the LiveCD, or in the case of my netbook, the LiveUSB), and once I had Oneiric installed, I blacklisted the ethernet driver atl1c because I normally use the wifi.

I will monitor progress of this bug. In time it will get fixed, and I will then un-blacklist the atl1c driver.

What I won't do is go on internet forums and complain loudly that the KDE4 wifi manager is broken.

Edited 2011-10-18 00:18 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2