Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 22nd Oct 2011 22:24 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless Remember back when Nokia jumped to Windows Phone 7, abandoning all other platforms and future directions? Remember Elop's infamous 'burning platform' memo was coveniently 'leaked' to the web? Remember how Elop claimed Windows Phone 7 was the only way forward, since nothing else inside the company would be ready for prime time soon enough? Remember how I thought this was a very good and sane decision? Well, the first reviews of what will be the only MeeGo handset from Nokia (the N9) are in, and well... To whoever decided to go WP7 and ditch MeeGo: I don't like you. To myself: I'm an idiot for arguing this was a good idea.
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Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29


Qt creator includes:

- Projects
- two integrated visual editors, Qt Designer and Qt Quick Designer
- Language aware code editor
- context-sensitive help on classes, functions, and symbols
- targets, including mobile targets
- version control systems
- Qt Simulator
- integrated support for debuggers

So, eight rungs up the ladder from EMACS.


I'm glad it supports the basics, I really am. I exaggerated a bit, but the point is the same. Qt Creator is no Visual Studio. Its good, but not good enough.

The Linux development stack is woefully immature for any kind of serious development.



What on earth has that statement got to do with Nokia's N9, Meego, Qt, Qt Creator or Qtquick?


WP7 is the alternative to MeeGo (and by extension Qt Creator, and Qt Quick) and Android is the other option Nokia could have chosen.

I don't really understand this animosity towards Microsoft and Windows Phone. I mean, sure, some dissapointment that Nokia gave up on its OS that was way, way off of schedule and not showing much for it, and it just happened to be Linux. I get it, its upsetting, but damn. Its been nearly a year already, get over it.

Reply Parent Score: 1

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I'm glad it supports the basics, I really am. I exaggerated a bit, but the point is the same. Qt Creator is no Visual Studio. Its good, but not good enough.

The Linux development stack is woefully immature for any kind of serious development.


Pfft. LOL.

http://www.linuxnewshere.com/index.php/linux-top-500-super-computer...

The people who run the world's fastest, most expensive machines aren't serious?

http://www.internetnews.com/skerner/2008/09/large-hadron-collider--...

The people who run the LHC aren't serious?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform

Google services, including Google search and YouTube, running on over a million Linux servers, aren't serious?

https://launchpad.net/

Launchpad, hosting 25050 development projects, isn't serious?

What planet do you live on?

WP7 is the alternative to MeeGo (and by extension Qt Creator, and Qt Quick) and Android is the other option Nokia could have chosen.

I don't really understand this animosity towards Microsoft and Windows Phone. I mean, sure, some dissapointment that Nokia gave up on its OS that was way, way off of schedule and not showing much for it, and it just happened to be Linux. I get it, its upsetting, but damn. Its been nearly a year already, get over it.


From a user's point of view WP7 has a worse ecosystem than even Meego/Qt, in that it is a walled garden, with barely any apps available for it.

From a user's point of view if the N9 could run both Meego/Qt apps (such as Calligra Active) AND all Android apps, then the platform beats all comers.

It easily beats all comers in terms of openness and in terms of readily available apps, off the shelf right now, today.

Yet Elop dropped it, and its own Symbia OS, in favour of WP7 which has less than 1% market share.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-ww-monthly-201110-201110-bar

WP7 doesn't even register.

In any sane assessment, this amounts to Elop deliberately sabotaging Nokia. It is just a shame that Microsoft probably won't go down with them.

Edited 2011-10-24 08:11 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


What planet do you live on?


The one where it is acknowledged that it is a sad state of affairs over there in penguin world.

They mananage to get shit done using inferior tooling, and that's great. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Developers shouldn't have to put up with the absolutely spartan tooling, I mean, seriously, this is an ongoing trend. Its always somebody elses fault, or you all always try to deflect away from the issues at hand by pointing to something, anything, to make it sound better.

Same thing happened with OpenOffice, erm sorry, LibreOffice. Same thing with GIMP. No, it can't possibly be our own inability to deliver quality products, its most definitely everyone else.

Come on, the lack of pragmatism on the Linux scene has hindered its success. Sure, maybe some huge enterprises are stupid enough to hire a shitload of C++ programmers to ducttape together a soluton for them. Great.

The fact still remains, you've lost, big, huge potential developers by not having a coherent development platform. I'm not talking about a collection of command line tools that you can hobble together to resemble something easy to use. Or mazes of buildscripts and black magic debuggers.

I'm talking about how easy it is for a small business or startup to get a solution done using the Linux Stack? Not very.

The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging you have one. Believe me, you have a big problem.

Qt and Qt Creator is a step in the right direction. Mono and MonoDevelop is a step in the right direction.

They're great starting points but need work. Hell, Qt tries so very hard to hide C++'s fail with the moc, and Mono does a great job at giving you all a good framework despite the flames, but more is needed.

People want ease of use, and I think this arrogance is symptomatic of the problem you all have. Quit thinking about yourselves, your own needs, start catering to developers. It'll help.

]From a user's point of view WP7 has a worse ecosystem than even Meego/Qt, in that it is a walled garden, with barely any apps available for it.

From a user's point of view if the N9 could run both Meego/Qt apps (such as Calligra Active) all Android apps, then the platform beats all comers.


App numbers are just a tick in a box. Momentum is key. The Windows Phone marketplace is outpacing Android, and going on-par and sometimes faster than iPhone. Also developers enjoy more paying customers on the WP7 marketplace vs Android, and generate more ad impressions (which are growing at an astonishing rate M/M).


Yet Elop dropped it, and its own Symbia OS, in favour of WP7 which has less than 1% market share.


He made a long term decision based on long term projections. Its illogical to look at how things are today and use it to make a decision for something with a multiyear span. Think.

MeeGo was going nowhere, very slowly. Microsoft needs Nokia, Nokia needs Microsoft. Its mutual, and I believe that by this time next year, they will have made significant inroads into the market.

Remember, Android had a slow start as well. The G1 was absolute shit.


In any sane assessment, this amounts to Elop deliberately sabotaging Nokia. It is just a shame that Microsoft probably won't go down with them.


Heh, I'm going to be amused when this is regarded by history as a monumental comeback.

Reply Parent Score: -1

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

"I'm glad it supports the basics, I really am. I exaggerated a bit, but the point is the same. Qt Creator is no Visual Studio. Its good, but not good enough.

The Linux development stack is woefully immature for any kind of serious development.


Pfft. LOL.
"

And so speaks Lemur2 - has no one learnt anything all these years? When Lemur2 speaks, the earth shudders and all those who dare contradict turn to stone and burn in hell.

Serious reply: You do not seem to know what you are talking about. Better to stay quiet rather than make a fool of yourself.


What planet do you live on?


All lovely links. Now realise, install gcc and GNU and most of what you mention here can be done on BSD. However, this has zero to do with what the OP was talking about.

WP7 is the alternative to MeeGo (and by extension Qt Creator, and Qt Quick) and Android is the other option Nokia could have chosen.


Um... but how would that have differentiated them from every other Android partner? Really? I expect they got a dood deal from Microsoft, but who really knows? What they did inherit from Microsoft was an absolutely ROCK SOLID developer platform and literally hundreds of people that can and will develop apps.

"I don't really understand this animosity towards Microsoft and Windows Phone. <snip>.


From a user's point of view WP7 has a worse ecosystem than even Meego/Qt, in that it is a walled garden, with barely any apps available for it.
"

Hmmm... how many apps does Meego actually have? I mean, actual apps for Meego, not ported apps?

From a user's point of view if the N9 could run both Meego/Qt apps (such as Calligra Active) AND all Android apps, then the platform beats all comers.


In your mind. But that is your opinion, not necessarily reality, right? I realise you like to be right all the time and can't bare to be proven wrong, but on this one (Android on Meego) you are wrong. I'm not going to repeat what I said in another thread, but here we stand, someone that has developed using Nokia technologies and has had commercial dealings with Nokia and, er, you.

It easily beats all comers in terms of openness and in terms of readily available apps, off the shelf right now, today.


..in terms of product confusion and app eco system dilation. It will make zero money for Nokia (and I assume OVI was meant to make money at some point) and also, let's not forget that it would seem unlikely that the Meego phone would have Marketplace access, so what really does that leave? I guess if they are lucky, Amazon Android app store (or whatever they call that these days) or one of the other cruddy app stores.

Yet Elop dropped it, and its own Symbia OS, in favour of WP7 which has less than 1% market share.


At the moment. You aren't going to like the next 18 months, because 1% will be a distant memory as soon as there are actually Windows 7 phones from brands such as Nokia. Why? Because they will be pushed like mad.


WP7 doesn't even register.


And where is Meego?

In any sane assessment,


Steady on, let's not get carried away with ourselves here... "In [your] opinion" maybe, but calling anything you say "sane" when most of it is wildly ranting and quite often obsessive, well.. no.

this amounts to Elop deliberately sabotaging Nokia. It is just a shame that Microsoft probably won't go down with them.


Why? Let's just see how it plays out before we make wild sweeping statements.

Reply Parent Score: 5

kragil Member since:
2006-01-04


The Linux development stack is woefully immature for any kind of serious development.



Mark of delusioned MS/C#/VS fanboy. Products that use the "Linux development stack" generate _billions_ each month.

Just because there aren't that many bright people on this planet and enterprises need fill their ranks with stupid C# devs that don't really understand anything and need VS handholding all the way does not mean that it is any good.

The world is build on C and C++, deal with it.

Anyways, I have used VS and QtCreator and sure VS is more versatile, but for C++ development QtCreator compares quite well and for Qt development it is unmatched. It is also faster, cross platform and develops at a much faster rate.

Edited 2011-10-24 08:07 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Just because there aren't that many bright people on this planet and enterprises need fill their ranks with stupd C# devs that don't really understand anything and need VS handholding all the way does not mean that it is any good.

The world is build on C and C++, deal with it.


That's unfortunate. You enjoy being a masochist. Spending more time worrying about, and fighting with the language instead of being productive.

Enterprises see the value in rapid application development, and I didn't think it needed mentioning that managed languages present some of the soundest development principals for maintainable, scalable, reusable code.

But this isn't even about managed vs unmanaged. Even your C++ tools are lacking. Please don't get me started with the absolute bullshit that GDB is.

Reply Parent Score: 1

_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

I don't really understand this animosity towards Microsoft and Windows Phone. I mean, sure, some dissapointment that Nokia gave up on its OS that was way, way off of schedule and not showing much for it, and it just happened to be Linux. I get it, its upsetting, but damn. Its been nearly a year already, get over it.



I'm not sure about others, but my animosity about MS and WP7 boils down to this:

-Patents and the MS attitude toward them; no more needs to be said.

-The fact that no matter how creative and and interesting WP7 is, MS deserves to be in the position it is due the massive missteps (in the past) it has made regarding mobile.
Nobody else would never have had the opportunities to fail and (eventually) produce something like WP7. Sure you can fail and learn from mistakes but there should be a limit really.

-Also I massively dislike the fact that MS tends to completely screw over its partners (on the hardware side), through malice or callousness.

Edited 2011-10-24 12:18 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


-Patents and the MS attitude toward them; no more needs to be said.


Then thats a fundamental disagreement. I believe they're an equal player in all of this. They are licensees just as much as they are the licensor. I think a lot of what they, and others, patent are valid and patentable.

Products should be protected from blatant copying of an idea.


-The fact that no matter how creative and and interesting WP7 is, MS deserves to be in the position it is due the massive missteps (in the past) it has made regarding mobile.

Nobody else would never have had the opportunities to fail and (eventually) produce something like WP7. Sure you can fail and learn from mistakes but there should be a limit really.


I disagree, I dont count it against them that they have sufficient alternative income to hedge their bets. They have done some pretty good things in markets they're eventually pushed themselves into, look at the 360 with Kinect.


-Also I massively dislike the fact that MS tends to completely screw over its partners (on the hardware side), through malice or callousness.


This I agree with, though lately it seems to have been the other way around for Windows Phone OEMs. This half-hearted commitment by them I think precipitated the Nokia deal a great amount.

Reply Parent Score: 2