Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 3rd Nov 2011 19:34 UTC, submitted by lucas_maximus
Hardware, Embedded Systems A big issue right now in the world of operating systems - especially Linux - is Microsoft's requirement that all Windows 8 machines ship with UEFI's secure boot enabled, with no requirement that OEMs implement it so users can turn it off. This has caused some concern in the Linux world, and considering Microsoft's past and current business practices and the incompetence of OEMs, that's not unwarranted. CNet's Ed Bott decided to pose the issue to OEMs. Dell stated is has plans to include the option to turn secure boot off, while HP was a bit more vague about the issue.
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RE[3]: Ok, let's be fair
by Alfman on Sun 6th Nov 2011 04:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Ok, let's be fair"
Alfman
Member since:
2011-01-28

ilovebeer,

"If buying a prebuilt system locked to a specific OS is a problem for you, do not buy a prebuilt system locked to a specific OS. You have several alternatives so be smart about your purchase and buy something that suits your needs rather than something that doesn't and then complain about it."


I'm sure I've answered this already, but here we go...

Existing knowledgeable linux users will suffer somewhat due to the worsening availability of equipment that works for us, new or used. Keep in mind many linux users also need to use windows, and we don't all care to build our own systems. We probably won't be able to get the scales of economy deals any longer because of these restrictions. I know you don't care about keeping our supplier options open, but that doesn't make the point any less valid, fragmentation will hurt us.

A bigger concern, IMO, is that the vendor locks on new windows machines will severely limit alternate OS adoption by newbies. The reasons for this should be obvious. Saying it's their fault for not knowing any better is ridiculous considering that there was no reason they should have been locked in the first place.


I've already pointed out issues with secure boot that affect windows users as well. I appreciate that you don't care about any of it's problems, and that's ok. But that's not a reason to dismiss the problems for everyone else, we have legitimate reasons to be concerned and seek answers.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Ok, let's be fair
by ilovebeer on Sun 6th Nov 2011 14:56 in reply to "RE[3]: Ok, let's be fair"
ilovebeer Member since:
2011-08-08

Existing knowledgeable linux users will suffer somewhat due to the worsening availability of equipment that works for us, new or used. Keep in mind many linux users also need to use windows, and we don't all care to build our own systems. We probably won't be able to get the scales of economy deals any longer because of these restrictions. I know you don't care about keeping our supplier options open, but that doesn't make the point any less valid, fragmentation will hurt us.
1. It's not Microsoft's responsibility to cater to Linux users wants.

2. The availability of Linux-compatible hardware is absolutely NOT "worsening." - whatever that is supposed to mean to begin with. As a matter of fact, the opposite is true... more and more hardware is supported with each iteration of the Linux kernel alone, not to mention out-of-kernel drivers.

3. If you choose not to buy or build a system that suits your needs, it's your own fault and your own problem. Vendors aren't to blame, Microsoft isn't to blame, just you.

4. Nothing you've said is based in reality, truth, or fact. In other words, you're just trying to spread unjustified FUD.

A bigger concern, IMO, is that the vendor locks on new windows machines will severely limit alternate OS adoption by newbies. The reasons for this should be obvious. Saying it's their fault for not knowing any better is ridiculous considering that there was no reason they should have been locked in the first place.
1. There is absolutely nothing wrong or illegal with Microsoft or system vendors protecting their interests.

2. If a user does not consider their needs and research their options, picking one that best suits those needs, then yes it's absolutely their own fault. What's ridiculous is that you think users have no personal responsibility.

I've already pointed out issues with secure boot that affect windows users as well. I appreciate that you don't care about any of it's problems, and that's ok. But that's not a reason to dismiss the problems for everyone else, we have legitimate reasons to be concerned and seek answers.
1. IF reality becomes "Designed for Windows 8" systems are actually locked to only Windows 8, then the only people who should consider buying those systems are people who intend to use Windows 8. If you insist on buying something doesn't suit your needs, stop the pointless whining and learn to make better decisions.

No matter how hard you try, you simply can not ignore the fact that you have several other options available to you aside of buying "Designed for Windows 8" systems. If the systems turn out not to be suited for your use, DON'T BUY THEM. It's such a basic and simplistic idea that it shouldn't even need to be pointed out.

You're behaving like somebody that buys a circle and complains that it's not a square. Stupidity and/or ignorance doesn't magically make your poor decisions someone elses fault.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[5]: Ok, let's be fair
by ichi on Sun 6th Nov 2011 18:52 in reply to "RE[4]: Ok, let's be fair"
ichi Member since:
2007-03-06

No matter how hard you try, you simply can not ignore the fact that you have several other options available to you aside of buying "Designed for Windows 8" systems. If the systems turn out not to be suited for your use, DON'T BUY THEM. It's such a basic and simplistic idea that it shouldn't even need to be pointed out.

You're behaving like somebody that buys a circle and complains that it's not a square. Stupidity and/or ignorance doesn't magically make your poor decisions someone elses fault.


So your point is that instead of asking OEMs to come up with a sane SecureBoot implementation we should suck it up and beg for the crumbs shopping around for the few non Windows8 hardware that we can find.

Will any OEM be selling PCs and laptops without Windows8 in a couple of years?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Ok, let's be fair
by Alfman on Sun 6th Nov 2011 22:32 in reply to "RE[4]: Ok, let's be fair"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

ilovebeer,

"1. It's not Microsoft's responsibility to cater to Linux users wants."

Overlooking possible anti-trust violations, you're absolutely right, however this simply does not dismiss our concerns.

"2. ... more and more hardware is supported with each iteration of the Linux kernel alone, not to mention out-of-kernel drivers."

Out of the box Linux compatibility is a strength... But 1) this isn't just about linux, 2) how does this justify locking down the keys to favor microsoft?


"3. If you choose not to buy or build a system that suits your needs, it's your own fault and your own problem. Vendors aren't to blame, Microsoft isn't to blame, just you."

This only holds if the restrictions are made clear at the point of sale. My point about fragmentation of the alternative OS ecosystem still holds. And in any case it still doesn't justify secure boot being designed to lock out the owner's control over keys.

"4. Nothing you've said is based in reality, truth, or fact. In other words, you're just trying to spread unjustified FUD."

I'm asking questions like everyone else because I am concerned about the migration to closed computing. Please quote specifically what you believe to be unjustified FUD. If you don't have the answers either, then why do you seek to dismiss my questions?

"1. There is absolutely nothing wrong or illegal with Microsoft or system vendors protecting their interests."

You can say that about any business with questionable ethics, however it doesn't answer our questions nor does it ameliorate our concerns. Even assuming these restrictions are entirely legal, it does not absolve them of public criticism.

"2. If a user does not consider their needs and research their options, picking one that best suits those needs, then yes it's absolutely their own fault. What's ridiculous is that you think users have no personal responsibility."

Like I said, you can blame the user as much as you like, but you can't deny that it is anti-competitive and potentially kills off one of the primary modes of adoption for alternate operating systems. Therefor it is a legitimate concern.


"...the fact that you have several other options available to you aside of buying 'Designed for Windows 8' systems. If the systems turn out not to be suited for your use, DON'T BUY THEM."

Again, even if you are right, it doesn't answer our questions and it doesn't dismiss our concerns at all. The secure boot spec still deserves criticism for being anti-competitive. As much as you want to see this through microsoft goggles, this is bigger than them. It's about recognizing that consumers benefit from open computing, and recognizing that incremental attempts to lock us out of our own machines have detrimental cumulative long term consequences, regardless of who instigates it.

Edited 2011-11-06 22:44 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2