Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 2nd Dec 2011 18:41 UTC
Windows Windows 8 will have both the new Metro-style applications and user interface and the traditional Windows 7 desktop for legacy applications, which kind of runs like an application. Since legacy applications have to be recompiled to run on ARM anyway, it's always been a bit unclear if the ARM version of Windows 8 would include the legacy desktop at all - even Microsoft itself confirmed it wasn't sure yet. Microsoft bloggers Mary-Jo Foley and Paul Thurrot have fresh rumours that Microsoft has now made the decision to remove the legacy desktop from the ARM version.
Thread beginning with comment 498752
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE: Born dead
by Nelson on Fri 2nd Dec 2011 20:17 UTC in reply to "Born dead"
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

I said it before and I will say it again. The Windows brand has no positive connotations with consumers. They only use it because the programms are there.


I'd say that's a positive connotation. "Hey Windows runs my favorite programs."


If MS cuts the cord to millions and millions of applications for some stupid fatty fingers apps then they are insane and Windows8 ARM sales will be even poorer than the abysmal Windows mobile phone 7.5 series sales.


That doesn't make sense. ARM was never going to run legacy apps anyway, so keeping the Desktop shell around never really made any sense to me.

I reject the notion that touch cannot augment the mouse and keyboard instead of replacing it. It is perfectly reasonable to expect an Office class program to be rewritten using the Metro UI.


People know where the apps are and by the time Windows 8 ships IOS and Android will be nearly unbeatable in that department IMO.


Windows operates on a scale that dwarfs even Android. The Windows App Store would be the most monumental money making opportunity for any app developer on the planet. Bar none. The install base of Windows is over a billion. If even a percentage of those people update their existing PCs ... it'll overtake Android and iOS.

With that momentum, the ecosystem will be there, and the tablet sales will follow suit.

There's no way Windows 8 isn't going to completely dominate, given abysmal Android tablet sales, and OEMs looking for an iOS contender.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Born dead
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Sat 3rd Dec 2011 15:46 in reply to "RE: Born dead"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

I'd say that's a positive connotation. "Hey Windows runs my favorite programs."


No. Never on earth have I heard that. What I do hear is :

F**king Windows! It crashed and corrupted my dissertation that I've been working on for 7 months!"


or

F**king Windows! It crashed while using my favorite program that was written years ago by developers just before they were committed to the insane asylum and considered buffer overflows to be a form of worship to their god Mountain Dew. Man microsoft sucks!"


or

F**king Windows 7! Back in the day windows 95 plus pack let me have cursors that looked like kittens! And I had a helpful Ape that helped me search the world wide web! Microsoft has simply lost its way!"


or

F**king Windows! All I want to do is to play this video game created by UberDRM, but I lost the activation code! Man Windows sucks"


Point is people still think their monitor is their computer (probably because sometimes it is, and now we have tablets and smart phones where the intelligence and display are in the same package, but I digress), and don't always understand where the OS starts and applications begin.

The easiest ( although not most ethical) way to get out of a tech support problem is to blame windows. People will nod their head in agreement and share one of their "F**king windows!" stories.

Now, don't get me wrong, I hate F**king windows, but microsoft gets a lot more blame for things it doesn't directly cause. And because of that, it doesn't have a good rep with consumers.

Edited 2011-12-03 15:47 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Born dead
by lucas_maximus on Sun 4th Dec 2011 12:31 in reply to "RE[2]: Born dead"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The thing is that people don't blame Windows ... they tend to blame the computer. Those who actually care about getting something a little better tend to look at Macs first if they can afford them ... if not they ask someone else to help them fix it.

Unfortunately most tech support guys who are in PC World, don't really know that much about fixing hardware or Windows. I know more than these guys and I rarely bother "fixing things", mainly because I don't need to.

Edited 2011-12-04 12:33 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Born dead
by lindkvis on Mon 5th Dec 2011 13:00 in reply to "RE: Born dead"
lindkvis Member since:
2006-11-21

You are contradicting yourself without realising it.


That doesn't make sense. ARM was never going to run legacy apps anyway, so keeping the Desktop shell around never really made any sense to me.


Windows operates on a scale that dwarfs even Android. The Windows App Store would be the most monumental money making opportunity for any app developer on the planet. Bar none. The install base of Windows is over a billion. If even a percentage of those people update their existing PCs ... it'll overtake Android and iOS.


Windows Legacy operates on a scale that dwarfs even Android. Windows Metro does not. Obviously running Windows legacy applications is a massive feature and Windows Phone 7 shows exactly how dominating Microsoft is without their Legacy applications. Hint: not at all. Windows ARM thus has very little to offer anyone in momentum.

There's no way Windows 8 isn't going to completely dominate, given abysmal Android tablet sales, and OEMs looking for an iOS contender.


Android tablet sales are low, because currently there isn't great consumer demand for a tablet that isn't the iPad. That Windows 8 tablets are going to dominate because of poor Android sales is non sequitur. They are just as likely to become another also-ran.

You may not remember this, but Microsoft was actually in the tablet market before the iPad, and they failed abysmally. It was only when Apple entered the market with the iPad that people saw a tablet they were interested in, so even having legacy applications on a tablet is no guarantee to success.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Born dead
by TemporalBeing on Tue 6th Dec 2011 20:14 in reply to "RE: Born dead"
TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

"I said it before and I will say it again. The Windows brand has no positive connotations with consumers. They only use it because the programms are there.


I'd say that's a positive connotation. "Hey Windows runs my favorite programs."
"

People do quite well associate Microsoft Windows with Crashes, bad performance, etc. Especially when compared to Apple's MacOSX and iOS (which people are familiar with), and most IT shops know that Unix/Linux/etc. performs better than Microsoft Windows.

And people probably have fewer "favorite programs" than you realize - especially "favorite programs" that have a more usable, performant alternative on other OS's that they just not used yet.

"
If MS cuts the cord to millions and millions of applications for some stupid fatty fingers apps then they are insane and Windows8 ARM sales will be even poorer than the abysmal Windows mobile phone 7.5 series sales.


That doesn't make sense. ARM was never going to run legacy apps anyway, so keeping the Desktop shell around never really made any sense to me.
"

Well, try Windows 8 ARM may not be able to run any Windows x86 -based application; but that doesn't mean that developers won't rebuild their existing applications for x86 for the ARM to run under the same "legacy" environment on Windows 8 ARM - it's a cheap way to get sales and move/support customers to/on ARM.

By saying, we're not even going to provide the 'legacy' interface on Windows 8 ARM, they are effectively cutting off developers from a smooth transition path between the two platforms, and severely limiting the initial set of applications for Windows 8 ARM from what it could be.

"I reject the notion that touch cannot augment the mouse and keyboard instead of replacing it. It is perfectly reasonable to expect an Office class program to be rewritten using the Metro UI.
"

Yes, it is perfectly reasonable to expect an Office class program to be written under Metro UI; but that's a different can of worms than simply talking about 'touch'.

Yes, touch can easily replace the mouse - touchpads have been doing it for years. That said, iOS/Android/etc need some way of bring back the context menus and doing things more mouse like - e.g. double-clicks, etc. It's been figured out for a touch interface with the touchpads, so it's not impossible to do and would really help with the touch interfaces.

However, keyboards are more tricky. Yes, you can display a keyboard; however, once you start getting away from a small phone like form factor, and moving to a tablet form factor then you will want to use the displayed keyboard more like the keyboard on your laptop or at your desktop. And a pure touch interface makes that really hard unless you put divots/bumps on the touch interface which will only drive the user nuts in normal touch mode. Tossing an overlaid film on top (like that one Kickstarter project aims to provide) is one solution but still not quite sufficient.

And yes, I've tried typing on tablets. It takes my normally 100-200+ wpm to less than 20 wpm, mostly because I can't feel where I am on the keyboard. Solve that and it'll be great for typing.

"[q]
People know where the apps are and by the time Windows 8 ships IOS and Android will be nearly unbeatable in that department IMO.
"

Windows operates on a scale that dwarfs even Android. The Windows App Store would be the most monumental money making opportunity for any app developer on the planet. Bar none. The install base of Windows is over a billion. If even a percentage of those people update their existing PCs ... it'll overtake Android and iOS.

With that momentum, the ecosystem will be there, and the tablet sales will follow suit.
[/q]

Stop drinking the Microsoft Koolaid. You're not in Ballmer's office any more, so join the real world.

Reality is that even IDC is not expecting ANY upgrades on the Laptop and Desktop form factors from Windows 7 and earlier to Windows 8. That's a big statement from a big, pro-Microsoft firm.

Reality is that the Windows App Store is only as big as the apps that are in it; and Microsoft has had a hell of a time getting developers to make apps for Windows Phone 7, so it's really small compared to Apple's AppStore, Google's Android Market Place, or even B&N's store. So if there are not many apps, people won't use it. If people don't use it then developers won't go to it.

Yes, you'll see an increase in its use by Windows-only development houses, but they'll still probably be targetting either ARM or WinPhone7 devices, not Windows 8 in general.

Why the difference? Aside from Windows 8 ARM, and the various embedded versions, the full control of distribution for Windows applications has been by the Developers themselves. To use the Windows App store you have then share your revenue with Microsoft which leaves you in a dilemma:

- charge more for the App store version to offset the revenue sharing with Microsoft
- charge the same regardless and make less money on the App store versions

If charging more, then customers will go for the non-app store version as its cheaper (ala economic theory). If charging the same, then you lose revenue to Microsoft.

In either case, people are less likely to use the App store versions unless they are forced to (e.g. Windows 8 ARM and Windows Phone 7).

So that "big" app store is now more a liability than momentum to use to build up Windows 8 sales.

There's no way Windows 8 isn't going to completely dominate, given abysmal Android tablet sales, and OEMs looking for an iOS contender.


Windows 8 will dominate the same way Windows 7 did. Oh wait, Windows 7 didn't dominate either - the sales numbers were fudged (by including downgrade licensing in them, double counting as users are sold one edition and have to buy another to get the functionality they want, volume sales for older software were counted as newer editions, volume licenses have to get two licenses - once for the target device and the one that came with it to ensure they are fully covered in their licenses), and Windows 7 while beating out Windows Vista's market share which peaked at around 10-12% with its peak of around 20% is still not overcoming the Windows XP install base, which btw, doesn't have access to the Windows App Store.

Now add to it that on the x86 platforms you'll be constantly switching between MetroUI and legacy desktop mode, the confusion users will get when they click the 'start' button to try to start a "legacy" program and then get tossed back out to MetroUI, the confusion of people buying (downloading, whatever) an application for "Windows" only to find it won't run on Windows 8 ARM,...

Yeah, Windows 8 is already hamstrung into oblivion. I have no problem believing IDC when they say that Windows 8 will be largely irrelevant.

BTW, here's the link per the IDC info:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/12/05/idc_predicts_pc_users...
http://blogs.computerworld.com/19376/windows_8_will_be_an_upgrade_f...
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/windows-8-will-be-largely-irrel...
http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=231593

And, BTW, Mary Jo Foley has been quite well known as being very pro-Microsoft. So it also speaks wonders when she reports something like Windows 8 will be largely irrelevant.

Reply Parent Score: 2