Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 2nd Dec 2011 18:41 UTC
Windows Windows 8 will have both the new Metro-style applications and user interface and the traditional Windows 7 desktop for legacy applications, which kind of runs like an application. Since legacy applications have to be recompiled to run on ARM anyway, it's always been a bit unclear if the ARM version of Windows 8 would include the legacy desktop at all - even Microsoft itself confirmed it wasn't sure yet. Microsoft bloggers Mary-Jo Foley and Paul Thurrot have fresh rumours that Microsoft has now made the decision to remove the legacy desktop from the ARM version.
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RE[3]: missed opportunity
by Moochman on Fri 2nd Dec 2011 21:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: missed opportunity"
Moochman
Member since:
2005-07-06

Windows 8 on ARM loses one potential great asset over its competitors, and becomes yet another boring tablet OS with oversized controls that are only suitable for content consumption.


I disagree that "oversized controls" are only suitable for content consumption. For proof, just take a gander at the iPad versions of iWork, iMovie, GarageBand, and the plethora of other office and music production tools available for iPad. Just because iPad is marketed first and foremost as a content consumption tool doesn't mean that touch isn't perfectly capable of supporting content creation. Yes, in many cases a rethink of the UI is necessary, and yes, there will be many awkward experiments on the road to success, but I am highly skeptical that WIMP is "the one true way" and that touch is by definition crippled.

As for benefits over iOS and Android, see my comment below. Basically, Windows 8 will be the most open tablet development platform, with the most re-usable application code already out there, that has come to market so far.

Edited 2011-12-02 21:16 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: missed opportunity
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 2nd Dec 2011 22:30 in reply to "RE[3]: missed opportunity"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

For proof, just take a gander at the iPad versions of iWork, iMovie, GarageBand, and the plethora of other office and music production tools available for iPad.


They are proof of one thing: that touch is a horrible, horrible interface for anything other than consumption. I actually have iWork for the iPad, and it's the most useless piece of software ever devised. I'm not joking. It's so incredibly user-unfriendly, cumbersome, clunky, confusing, arbitrary, and full of confusing modes, it's virtually unusable.

Just because a few people can, with effort and compromise, use an iPad for creation does not mean it is actually suitable for it, in the same way that those Asian teenagers typing in in entire Harry Potter books with a numpad and T9 on their feature phones is not proof that numpad+T9 is a suitable input method.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: missed opportunity
by Moochman on Sat 3rd Dec 2011 00:40 in reply to "RE[4]: missed opportunity"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, I did say "there will be many awkward experiments on the road to success". ;) Just because one app doesn't succeed in your opinion (that, it must be said, is one of the first to even try to solve the problems) doesn't convince me of the general unsuitability. Can you name any particular reasons why a mouse is inherently better for such tasks than touch (potentially in combination with stylus for precision tasks), or do you simply not like the mappings of touch interactions that are used in iWork?

Particularly in the area of music creation and image manipulation there seems to be a huge potential IMHO for directly using multiple fingers to quickly manipulate things (in the case of image manipulation there is of course drawing but also the live adjustment of parameters simultaneously while doing so, to adjust the size of a brush by using multiple fingers, to precisely zoom in/out and rotate with unprecedented ease, etc.... In the case of music there's the potential to trigger multiple notes/sequences simultaneously and to tweak knobs and sliders simultaneously, which are just huge improvement over mouse-based interactions...)

And we haven't even started exploring the potential of combining stylus and touch support. Check out this video (with an open mind, if you don't already know it) to see the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9sTgLYH8qWs

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: missed opportunity
by Neolander on Sat 3rd Dec 2011 07:14 in reply to "RE[3]: missed opportunity"
Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

I disagree that "oversized controls" are only suitable for content consumption. For proof, just take a gander at the iPad versions of iWork, iMovie, GarageBand, and the plethora of other office and music production tools available for iPad.

Are you seriously advocating that those nearly compete with the content creation power of a desktop or laptop ? That you would without question type a 25-pages LaTeX report on an iPad ? I know that some people have fun finger painting and that someone from Gorillaz made a song or two on an iPad, but that does not mean that the tool is nearly as well-suited to the job as alternatives...

Just because iPad is marketed first and foremost as a content consumption tool doesn't mean that touch isn't perfectly capable of supporting content creation. Yes, in many cases a rethink of the UI is necessary, and yes, there will be many awkward experiments on the road to success, but I am highly skeptical that WIMP is "the one true way" and that touch is by definition crippled.

Touch OSs ARE WIMP. They just deal with hardware that has a smaller screen and a much, much more imprecise pointer, which in the end means significantly less controls that are not hidden behind several of levels of menu indirection.

On a side note, I do not believe that tablets are fundamentally incompatible with more serious content creation, if more capable input peripherals are attached to them. This is why I closely watch stuff such as Asus' Eee Pad Transformer and the HTC Flyer : I believe this is the kind of initiatives through which tablets could rise beyond the status of expensive toys, though OS and application support is obviously not there yet.

Edited 2011-12-03 07:17 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: missed opportunity
by MysterMask on Sat 3rd Dec 2011 11:53 in reply to "RE[4]: missed opportunity"
MysterMask Member since:
2005-07-12

Your horizon concerning 'content creation' is too limited: there is other content then large LATEX documents or 10000 lines of source code. It's just that traditional PCs / Laptops where never used for certain content creation stuff because they were unsuitable for the job. You can't measure 'content creation' by setting it equal to 'content created with PCs'.

E. g. think about photography: would you use the PC to take a picture? No, you would use it only for 'post-creation' because the camera is not good for that (to little cpu power, unsuitable interface). Now imagine having a device like a tablet with a bigger display than a camera and enough cpu-power to do photo editing / enhancements 'in-situ'. No need to carry a heavy laptop with you in most cases ..
Same goes for live music as already mentioned above.
Or think about SMS/Twitter/.. . this is content, too and it works well enough in mobile situations on touch devices (or at least way better than carrying a Laptop/PC around).

The cool thing about the 'post PC' era are new opportunities for creative developers and this includes media creation, too. Just because people (and hence developers) are more often consumers than creators and hence more creative applications for consumption than creation are developed does not mean that there are no media creation solution suitable for touch / tables input.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: missed opportunity
by henderson101 on Sat 3rd Dec 2011 17:01 in reply to "RE[4]: missed opportunity"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Are you seriously advocating that those nearly compete with the content creation power of a desktop or laptop ? That you would without question type a 25-pages LaTeX report on an iPad ? I know that some people have fun finger painting and that someone from Gorillaz made a song or two on an iPad, but that does not mean that the tool is nearly as well-suited to the job as alternatives...


Yes, I would. I've written long documents in Pages on my iPad. Honestly.

I've also recorded demos on my iPad in GarageBand. For GarageBand, you can start a project on the way home (lay down some drums and synths) then import the project in to GarageBand on the Mac and finish off with live instraments. But, I've also done 100% on my iPad, and iPhone as well. Having GarageBand on the iPhone is mind bending. A tascam portastudio 04 used to be £300+ as a stand alone in the 1990's. 4 tracks. GarageBand will do 8 tracks, and costs next to nothing. Yeah, you have to buy the phone/device, but if you have it anyway... Well...

Oh - and iMovie. Since iOS 5, my Kodak zi8 is supported out of the box, so I can record video and edit "live" and have it on YouTube/Vimeo right away. Again, game changer for me.

Oh, and I replied to this on an iPad 2 using the virtual keyboard. So, I stand by everything I'm saying and living by my words.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: missed opportunity
by redshift on Sat 3rd Dec 2011 21:41 in reply to "RE[3]: missed opportunity"
redshift Member since:
2006-05-06

disagree that "oversized controls" are only suitable for content consumption. For proof, just take a gander at the iPad versions of iWork, iMovie, GarageBand, and the plethora of other office and music production tools available for iPad.


They are some of the best examples of touch screen content creation tools out there. But they are still toys compared to their desktop counterparts. They have a great deal of awkwardness that they still need to overcome. Some tasks benefit from multitouch... but for those tasks that require high precision, a mouse with an unobstructed view of the content still works better.

I make a living doing content creation. I have found some interesting tools on the iPad that let me do some design concepts in an ultra mobile format. There are a even a few iOS clones of apps as complicated as Illustrator that show promise. But overall, touch UI's are optimized for consumption. They are not refined for creation and would cause a great deal of fatigue to use for day to day content production in their current state.

I would love to see a pro tablet that finds a balance that rivals the desktop for pro content creators. No one has it yet. It is not the current incarnations of iOS, or metro, and It certainly is not legacy windows desktops. Apple could cater to pros with a pro iOS line (but they seem to want to go for the low hanging consumers these days) and MS seems set on following Apples lead on consumption focused UI's. It would be a great nitch for a linux distribution to fill, since the big players making their beachheads on a distant shore. That is, if we are not locked out of our hardware by anti consumer practices.

Edited 2011-12-03 21:44 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1