Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jan 2012 10:06 UTC
Windows And so the smartphonification of the general purpose computer continues. This time around, though, it might actually be for the better. Microsoft has detailed two new features in Windows 8: refreshing and resetting your computer. Reinstalls will be a thing of the past.
Thread beginning with comment 502362
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
Laurence
Member since:
2007-03-26

Yet Linux bakes it into the user experience. To the extent people aren't updating Linux servers.

Only crap sys admins allow their servers to run out of date. Just like how crap intranet developers have forced some organisations to keep their users on XP + IE6.

Crap technicians exist on both platforms and hardly prove a point.

An update can kill you wireless or video still.

There's been plenty of horror stories about Windows driver updates and service packs breaking previously working systems.

Yes you have to make sure you aren't running every update manager under the planet, and everything is not starting on boot but this is the same for MacOSX and Linux as well

Actually it's not an issue for Linux as all the updates are managed centrally, which makes a massive difference (particularly as the majority of Windows start up bloat is the plethora of third party update managers)

I will say that in all fairness, an experienced user can keep even XP running stable for years without a re-install and the state of things have definitely got better with Win7. However I still think there is lots of room for improvement - and I mean that on both Windows and Linux.

Edited 2012-01-06 13:06 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 11

manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

Actually it's not an issue for Linux as all the updates are managed centrally, which makes a massive difference (particularly as the majority of Windows start up bloat is the plethora of third party update managers)


I beg to differ. When you want to update an application for some important new feature or bugfix then the updated packages are most probably not available on the "main" or "stable" repository but either some testing repo or third party repository. And then you scout the internet for possible repositories, each hosting their selection of duplicates and the app from that repo absolutely requires that repo's version of library X which of course conflicts with your installed stable (==old as hell) version of library X and there you have it - DLL hell all over again, this time with a different dressing.

And of course no Linux install comes with startup bloat, no sir! I absolutely need the plethora of servers and services that get started on a default install. SSH for when I want to remotely log in to my laptop (which is always travelling with me), cupsd (although I have never owned a printer) or even the full LAMP stack that some distros install.

To paraphrase our resident DJ Thom: "Pot, meet kettle!"

Reply Parent Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Uhm, It sounds like you are talking about a debian based distro. Which is a point, but not the whole enchilada.

Obviously, Arch does not have any of the problems you describe. Ubuntu does, which is why I avoid it. Fedora usually does not. The only time I ran into an issue is when I was still on Fedora 14 and needed a newer version of firefox ( 4+). The extra repos I found authored by a main fedora dev, and had no issues installing along side firefox 3.6. I actually added another when firefox 5 came out, before the normal upgrade to fedora 16 ( I always skip the odds).

SSH is on the order of kilobytes. Its not meaningful bloat. LAMP by default is not a configuration I've seen on a mainstream distro, although there are distros that do LAMP by default because they are designed for easy LAMP servers.

Linux distros are so varied that your comments can't really apply to them all. So its more like:

"Pot meet a collection of things made out of metal, some of which are black, others are used for cooking stuff, some of which you could put water in and hold over a flame to boil water, but everyone would look at you cross-eyed if you did"

Reply Parent Score: 1

fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

I beg to differ. When you want to update an application for some important new feature or bugfix then the updated packages are most probably not available on the "main" or "stable" repository but either some testing repo or third party repository. And then you scout the internet for possible repositories, each hosting their selection of duplicates and the app from that repo absolutely requires that repo's version of library X which of course conflicts with your installed stable (==old as hell) version of library X and there you have it - DLL hell all over again, this time with a different dressing.


At the risk of sounding "preachy", this is one of the habits that window's users have to drop when they which to Linux. I used to be the same way, having the latest greatest of every app, like I had in the Windows world. You are correct, on Linux this can lead to the same problems.

As I've aged (!), I've moved away from that habit. In fact, I've even started to live with some of the LTS version of Ubuntu, Mint, etc. In the rare instance where i just HAVE to have a more recent app, such as Firefox, I just download the .tgz binary, unzip it in my home directory and run it from there.

It's a hard adjustment to make, but since I have, I now get to live with a very stable system, and spend a lot more time using the computer instead of maintaining it.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26


I beg to differ. When you want to update an application for some important new feature or bugfix then the updated packages are most probably not available on the "main" or "stable" repository but either some testing repo or third party repository.

But the package management is still handled centrally - one update manager as opposed to a plethora of independant update managers which app compete against each other upon system start up (which was the point we were discussing).



And then you scout the internet for possible repositories, each hosting their selection of duplicates and the app from that repo absolutely requires that repo's version of library X which of course conflicts with your installed stable (==old as hell) version of library X and there you have it - DLL hell all over again, this time with a different dressing.

That's a separate issue entirely. If you have a problem with the availability of packages for your distro, then perhaps you should be looking towards other distros ;)


And of course no Linux install comes with startup bloat, no sir!

Of course some do. This isn't something I've ever stated otherwise so I'm really not sure why you're expressing it that way.

I absolutely need the plethora of servers and services that get started on a default install. SSH for when I want to remotely log in to my laptop (which is always travelling with me), cupsd (although I have never owned a printer) or even the full LAMP stack that some distros install.

So disable them, do a minimal install or pick a different distro that has better defaults out of the box (eg Ubuntu comes without openssh-server but Debian minimal install would come with sshd but without CUPS and even X.

Your argument is a little like complaining that Windows Server 2008 is bloated for the desktop.


To paraphrase our resident DJ Thom: "Pot, meet kettle!"

I sincerely hope you meant that ironically.

Reply Parent Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Actually it's not an issue for Linux as all the updates are managed centrally, which makes a massive difference (particularly as the majority of Windows start up bloat is the plethora of third party update managers)


Have you seen the number of services running on an Ubuntu or Fedora install? Quite a few, some I don't even know why they are there ... bluetooth device manager even when there is no bluetooth devices etc.

I have one update manager (for Adobe Reader), running on my system. Everything else is done via Windows Update ... that is Drivers, Office, SQL Server, VS 2010 ... Everything else checks when the app starts up.

I will say that in all fairness, an experienced user can keep even XP running stable for years without a re-install and the state of things have definitely got better with Win7. However I still think there is lots of room for improvement - and I mean that on both Windows and Linux.


Yeah there is, but the OP said that Windows had the problem ... I contest that buy saying they all have their problems.

Reply Parent Score: 2

bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Actually my nettop XP install is from 2004, my Win 7 gaming PC install is 2009, neither has ever needed reinstall thanks to my secret which is.....don't install crappy software! I know, its a concept and i'm sure heartbroken over those kitty screensavers i missed out on, but that's the price of having a rock solid Windows i suppose.

For those that would like a butt simple and cheap (or free depending on which Windows version you are on) way to set up windows and never have to worry about it here is the way. 1.-On first install go to ninite.com, pick any freeware you need and grab Avast free while you are there, 2.- go download Comodo dragon for a browser (you can use Chromium if you prefer, but i like the extra security features of the dragon) 3.-Install filehippo update checker which will take care of third party software updates, 4.- and finally the part that may cost money but is free if you're on XP as there is an old version they give away free, and that is Tuneup Utilities. It cleans the junk that ends up building in the registry during uninstalls and much more. you can get Glary at ninite if you don't mind doing it manually, but TuneUp has better features and does a better job IMHO and by default is fully automated.

Tada! you know how a Windows PC that is pretty much as easy to use as a toaster. it'll clean and take care of itself, Avast and Comodo keep out any nasties, its all easy peasy simple. if you are paranoid and want your machine to be unbreakable short of hardware failure you can add Comodo Time Machine for free and that way if little suzy manages to bork the OS so bad it won't even boot you just push the home key on startup and in 20 minutes you're back like nothing ever happened. See how easy that is? Certainly easier than playing forum hunt when Linux borks your wireless and with this even the most clueless are safe as houses while power users have a good running machine they never have to fiddle with, it all "just works" and keeps on working, year after year, oh and with TuneUp there is no "WinRot" which I've found is caused by badly written third party uninstallers leaving bad pointers in the reg. Enjoy!

Reply Parent Score: 1

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26



Have you seen the number of services running on an Ubuntu or Fedora install? Quite a few, some I don't even know why they are there ... bluetooth device manager even when there is no bluetooth devices etc.

But those services you listed on Linux are not update managers. They're just normal system services and you'd expect to see them on Windows as well (have you ever opened the system services control panel applet and seen the number of windows services that run even on a minimal install?).

Any sufficiently advanced OS will have a multitude of daemons / services running - that applies to both Windows and Linux and thus not something I was ever arguing against. However you specifically referred to update managers and stated that Linux suffers from multiple 3rd party update managers - which it does not. I'm not levelling criticism against Windows nor praising Linux, I'm just pointing out that your original statement was incorrect.

I have one update manager (for Adobe Reader), running on my system. Everything else is done via Windows Update ... that is Drivers, Office, SQL Server, VS 2010 ... Everything else checks when the app starts up.

That's not the default action though (you have to enable non-OS support to get things like Office to update automatically via Window Update manager) plus that only works with Microsoft software.



Yeah there is, but the OP said that Windows had the problem ... I contest that buy saying they all have their problems.

Indeed they do. This we agree on.

Edited 2012-01-08 11:57 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3