Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jan 2012 10:06 UTC
Windows And so the smartphonification of the general purpose computer continues. This time around, though, it might actually be for the better. Microsoft has detailed two new features in Windows 8: refreshing and resetting your computer. Reinstalls will be a thing of the past.
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manjabes
Member since:
2005-08-27

Actually it's not an issue for Linux as all the updates are managed centrally, which makes a massive difference (particularly as the majority of Windows start up bloat is the plethora of third party update managers)


I beg to differ. When you want to update an application for some important new feature or bugfix then the updated packages are most probably not available on the "main" or "stable" repository but either some testing repo or third party repository. And then you scout the internet for possible repositories, each hosting their selection of duplicates and the app from that repo absolutely requires that repo's version of library X which of course conflicts with your installed stable (==old as hell) version of library X and there you have it - DLL hell all over again, this time with a different dressing.

And of course no Linux install comes with startup bloat, no sir! I absolutely need the plethora of servers and services that get started on a default install. SSH for when I want to remotely log in to my laptop (which is always travelling with me), cupsd (although I have never owned a printer) or even the full LAMP stack that some distros install.

To paraphrase our resident DJ Thom: "Pot, meet kettle!"

Reply Parent Score: 2

Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Uhm, It sounds like you are talking about a debian based distro. Which is a point, but not the whole enchilada.

Obviously, Arch does not have any of the problems you describe. Ubuntu does, which is why I avoid it. Fedora usually does not. The only time I ran into an issue is when I was still on Fedora 14 and needed a newer version of firefox ( 4+). The extra repos I found authored by a main fedora dev, and had no issues installing along side firefox 3.6. I actually added another when firefox 5 came out, before the normal upgrade to fedora 16 ( I always skip the odds).

SSH is on the order of kilobytes. Its not meaningful bloat. LAMP by default is not a configuration I've seen on a mainstream distro, although there are distros that do LAMP by default because they are designed for easy LAMP servers.

Linux distros are so varied that your comments can't really apply to them all. So its more like:

"Pot meet a collection of things made out of metal, some of which are black, others are used for cooking stuff, some of which you could put water in and hold over a flame to boil water, but everyone would look at you cross-eyed if you did"

Reply Parent Score: 1

manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

SSH is on the order of kilobytes. Its not meaningful bloat.

<nitpick>So a friendly little 5KB Blaster/Sasser/Sobig that starts up when an infected WinXP box boots is no big deal?</nitpick>

What I also find interesting is that MS got a lot of flak for so many (!) versions of Win7 but when it comes to Linux/BSD then the overwhelming choice is actually a good thing and it's usually the users' fault for choosing the wrong distro. (Jesus f***, did I just defend Microsoft here?? That felt weird...dirty even) BTW, for what it's worth, most of my "DLL hell for Linux v.0.3" occurred with SUSE (granted, with *buntu too).

Reply Parent Score: 1

fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

I beg to differ. When you want to update an application for some important new feature or bugfix then the updated packages are most probably not available on the "main" or "stable" repository but either some testing repo or third party repository. And then you scout the internet for possible repositories, each hosting their selection of duplicates and the app from that repo absolutely requires that repo's version of library X which of course conflicts with your installed stable (==old as hell) version of library X and there you have it - DLL hell all over again, this time with a different dressing.


At the risk of sounding "preachy", this is one of the habits that window's users have to drop when they which to Linux. I used to be the same way, having the latest greatest of every app, like I had in the Windows world. You are correct, on Linux this can lead to the same problems.

As I've aged (!), I've moved away from that habit. In fact, I've even started to live with some of the LTS version of Ubuntu, Mint, etc. In the rare instance where i just HAVE to have a more recent app, such as Firefox, I just download the .tgz binary, unzip it in my home directory and run it from there.

It's a hard adjustment to make, but since I have, I now get to live with a very stable system, and spend a lot more time using the computer instead of maintaining it.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26


I beg to differ. When you want to update an application for some important new feature or bugfix then the updated packages are most probably not available on the "main" or "stable" repository but either some testing repo or third party repository.

But the package management is still handled centrally - one update manager as opposed to a plethora of independant update managers which app compete against each other upon system start up (which was the point we were discussing).



And then you scout the internet for possible repositories, each hosting their selection of duplicates and the app from that repo absolutely requires that repo's version of library X which of course conflicts with your installed stable (==old as hell) version of library X and there you have it - DLL hell all over again, this time with a different dressing.

That's a separate issue entirely. If you have a problem with the availability of packages for your distro, then perhaps you should be looking towards other distros ;)


And of course no Linux install comes with startup bloat, no sir!

Of course some do. This isn't something I've ever stated otherwise so I'm really not sure why you're expressing it that way.

I absolutely need the plethora of servers and services that get started on a default install. SSH for when I want to remotely log in to my laptop (which is always travelling with me), cupsd (although I have never owned a printer) or even the full LAMP stack that some distros install.

So disable them, do a minimal install or pick a different distro that has better defaults out of the box (eg Ubuntu comes without openssh-server but Debian minimal install would come with sshd but without CUPS and even X.

Your argument is a little like complaining that Windows Server 2008 is bloated for the desktop.


To paraphrase our resident DJ Thom: "Pot, meet kettle!"

I sincerely hope you meant that ironically.

Reply Parent Score: 2